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I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet also, even now, still buy Russian propaganda hook line and sinker ! Even

I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet also, even now, still buy Russian propaganda hook line and sinker ! Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! (And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre - in an age of WikiLeaks/Snowden (!!) - I mean, if Macron had ordered to open fire on the Gilet Jaunes manifestations killing a hundred, I would hope that a coup would have shortly followed, regardless of whether a significant fraction of the protesters were CIA agents !) I guess it's some combination of "the enemy of my enemy of my friend", and the sheer lack of interest in most (?) EU media (but especially the French one?) in the ex-URSS, resulting in a lack of competent specialists, resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation, after which Russian propaganda was quick to fill the resulting void (especially noticeable in the "alternative" medias like Agoravox since 2014).

kkfx 5y ago
> I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet Did you think OSCE publish Russian propaganda? The Atlantic Council? Rand corp? Because those are my cited sources... Beside that I'm not worried by USA propaganda but by propaganda in general and by the vast mass of vulnerable people that ingest it acritically: thanks to propaganda we already have had two world war, I think they was enough... > Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! Wars are done for interests, needs, not on moral basis there is no right or wrong side, just interest on one and another and also other sides. Best EU interest is the Russian side, best China and USA interest is keeping that war a long as possible to on one (USA/UK) side demolish a resurgent EU that was about to left NATO oppression and on the other (China) push Russian resources and military tech to China, witch means they'll be ready for WWIII in just few years. > And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! OSCE report? It's from an EU official body, hard to say it's Russian propaganda... Or another example https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s... just to add another I do not cite before. Or you prefer the Russie.NEI.Visions in English from the French IFRI to cite another definitively not putinian body? BTW you can find sources from The Diplomat, Foreign Policies and various others of the same kind, all you need is a honest web search... > And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre We have phone interceptions but it does not matter at all a single episode, what it matter is the macro level, witch means NATO expansion, NATO creation of nazi forces not even just in Ukraine but in all western EU, and not today but in few decades (did you remember op. Stay Behind, Aldo Moro killing etc? To cite some historical and well documented ones). We can't know the truth about a specific episode even if someone say it. We can instead know the global truth because at macro scale nothing can be really hidden for long. > resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation I suggest you to try the mirror test: how can you say that you have a clear understatement while those who think different are caught in Russian propaganda? How many reasonably official source of information you have read, looked for? I mean public institutions not generic press of any kind and any country. How much you followed in the timeline the news stream? How much you know about Ukraine, just in history terms (did you actual Ukraine was a Soviet-made country from 1954?), did you know who manage Ukrainian infrastructures especially oil&gas ones? (hint: USA, UK and Holland companies, like for Kazakhstan). Try to honestly reflect on those aspects. Than tell your conclusion. Oh, in evilness terms, did you remember the Iraq invasion based on claimed lies from some USA and UK élites about the Saddam mass destruction weapons that do not exists? Or the Afghanistan invasion based on the false claim they protect bin laden? Or the France ops in Libya when Qaddafi start to touch France-controlled CFA? Or Syria? Just to cite actual ones, but we can also came back to famous propaganda-made wars like Guatemala, the last strike of Eduard Bernays for the United Fruit co, those of Chiquita bananas between the rest.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  The wrong side is the one killing civilians. Putin's side is even more tied to fascists (even and especially across EU !) than the Ukrainian side... I have a much better understanding than your average West European because I was born in Russia, am fluent in Russian, and have family roughly split between Russia and Ukraine (and for what that's worth, had a grandfather that actually fought Nazis - I can't really believe it, but I'm now glad that he didn't live to 2014 and to see this insanity). And now I'm going to have to cut this discussion short because I have to try to reach my Ukrainian relatives again, which I'm having a hard time to, because cellphones have trouble working from bomb shelters, and they're even being shelled during the day these days.
  - kkfx 5y ago
    Re-read the history, start from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-their-elite-schools-on-top-british-private-schools https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th... one thing I've learnt from my grandparents was: élites who speak English are brother with whose who speak German, in the sense you can imaging. Of course, that's does not means Putin isn't similarly a dictator, the the blackbird is black like the crow of course but actually Russians aren't ready for Democracy so unfortunately they haven't much choice. Back in the past when bolsheviks overthrown the Mensheviks (thanks to Kaiser money, via Sweden) was already clear that seeds of Democracy were not enough, for Russian Federation Putin now it's the sole option, the other one will being back to a new and correct Soviet Union but that's an utopia so they can just try to be back as an empire. That's is. Similarly most EU citizens are pushed again toward nazi ideas, we are around the thirst 20-30 years of 1900, a new world war is "needed" and many civilians will be killed, NOT much by Russian army, far more by militia armed by the same cancers of humanity that crafted nazi-fascism before. BTW I'm Italian but I have some Russian and Ukrainian friends with various political ideas, and some news: if you imaging that "cellphones have trouble working from bomb shelters" you are just spread propaganda for a very simple reason: Russian targets are unknown to us, but Russian strategy is not: they do not bomb anything like USA in the WWII or NATO thereafter, they want a country or part of it, not ruins, when they bomb hospitals they bomb military targets occupied by Azov, C14, Pravy Sektor, Svoboda, ... not because that's what their press say but because bombs are not cheap and they haven't the USA military-industry complex nourished by wars and reconstructions thereafter, so an error can happen, but nothing more than that for mere practical reasons. Bomb shelters beside these days does not exists anymore than in the USA and some abandoned in Swiss. They came from WWII kind of mass-bombing not today's one. So please do not consider that a sterile polemics or a personal attack but from what you write I can be wrong of course, but I suspect you have absolutely no knowledge of what's going on in Ukraine nor in EU. That's perfectly legit, you probably just "trust the system", accepting propaganda press not that different than soviet Pravda, as reality, but on HN typically there are a cohort of people who look under the tree, no one is immune to propaganda, no one can really know the truth but dissecting news enough to understand what's real and what's manufactured at a certain level is easy.

kkfx 5y ago

> I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet Did you think OSCE publish Russian propaganda? The Atlantic Council? Rand corp? Because those are my cited sources... Beside that I'm not worried by USA propaganda but by propaganda in general and by the vast mass of vulnerable people that ingest it acritically: thanks to propaganda we already have had two world war, I think they was enough... > Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! Wars are done for interests, needs, not on moral basis there is no right or wrong side, just interest on one and another and also other sides. Best EU interest is the Russian side, best China and USA interest is keeping that war a long as possible to on one (USA/UK) side demolish a resurgent EU that was about to left NATO oppression and on the other (China) push Russian resources and military tech to China, witch means they'll be ready for WWIII in just few years. > And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! OSCE report? It's from an EU official body, hard to say it's Russian propaganda... Or another example https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s... just to add another I do not cite before. Or you prefer the Russie.NEI.Visions in English from the French IFRI to cite another definitively not putinian body? BTW you can find sources from The Diplomat, Foreign Policies and various others of the same kind, all you need is a honest web search... > And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre We have phone interceptions but it does not matter at all a single episode, what it matter is the macro level, witch means NATO expansion, NATO creation of nazi forces not even just in Ukraine but in all western EU, and not today but in few decades (did you remember op. Stay Behind, Aldo Moro killing etc? To cite some historical and well documented ones). We can't know the truth about a specific episode even if someone say it. We can instead know the global truth because at macro scale nothing can be really hidden for long. > resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation I suggest you to try the mirror test: how can you say that you have a clear understatement while those who think different are caught in Russian propaganda? How many reasonably official source of information you have read, looked for? I mean public institutions not generic press of any kind and any country. How much you followed in the timeline the news stream? How much you know about Ukraine, just in history terms (did you actual Ukraine was a Soviet-made country from 1954?), did you know who manage Ukrainian infrastructures especially oil&gas ones? (hint: USA, UK and Holland companies, like for Kazakhstan). Try to honestly reflect on those aspects. Than tell your conclusion. Oh, in evilness terms, did you remember the Iraq invasion based on claimed lies from some USA and UK élites about the Saddam mass destruction weapons that do not exists? Or the Afghanistan invasion based on the false claim they protect bin laden? Or the France ops in Libya when Qaddafi start to touch France-controlled CFA? Or Syria? Just to cite actual ones, but we can also came back to famous propaganda-made wars like Guatemala, the last strike of Eduard Bernays for the United Fruit co, those of Chiquita bananas between the rest.

BlueTemplar 5y ago
The wrong side is the one killing civilians. Putin's side is even more tied to fascists (even and especially across EU !) than the Ukrainian side... I have a much better understanding than your average West European because I was born in Russia, am fluent in Russian, and have family roughly split between Russia and Ukraine (and for what that's worth, had a grandfather that actually fought Nazis - I can't really believe it, but I'm now glad that he didn't live to 2014 and to see this insanity). And now I'm going to have to cut this discussion short because I have to try to reach my Ukrainian relatives again, which I'm having a hard time to, because cellphones have trouble working from bomb shelters, and they're even being shelled during the day these days.
- kkfx 5y ago
  Re-read the history, start from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-their-elite-schools-on-top-british-private-schools https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th... one thing I've learnt from my grandparents was: élites who speak English are brother with whose who speak German, in the sense you can imaging. Of course, that's does not means Putin isn't similarly a dictator, the the blackbird is black like the crow of course but actually Russians aren't ready for Democracy so unfortunately they haven't much choice. Back in the past when bolsheviks overthrown the Mensheviks (thanks to Kaiser money, via Sweden) was already clear that seeds of Democracy were not enough, for Russian Federation Putin now it's the sole option, the other one will being back to a new and correct Soviet Union but that's an utopia so they can just try to be back as an empire. That's is. Similarly most EU citizens are pushed again toward nazi ideas, we are around the thirst 20-30 years of 1900, a new world war is "needed" and many civilians will be killed, NOT much by Russian army, far more by militia armed by the same cancers of humanity that crafted nazi-fascism before. BTW I'm Italian but I have some Russian and Ukrainian friends with various political ideas, and some news: if you imaging that "cellphones have trouble working from bomb shelters" you are just spread propaganda for a very simple reason: Russian targets are unknown to us, but Russian strategy is not: they do not bomb anything like USA in the WWII or NATO thereafter, they want a country or part of it, not ruins, when they bomb hospitals they bomb military targets occupied by Azov, C14, Pravy Sektor, Svoboda, ... not because that's what their press say but because bombs are not cheap and they haven't the USA military-industry complex nourished by wars and reconstructions thereafter, so an error can happen, but nothing more than that for mere practical reasons. Bomb shelters beside these days does not exists anymore than in the USA and some abandoned in Swiss. They came from WWII kind of mass-bombing not today's one. So please do not consider that a sterile polemics or a personal attack but from what you write I can be wrong of course, but I suspect you have absolutely no knowledge of what's going on in Ukraine nor in EU. That's perfectly legit, you probably just "trust the system", accepting propaganda press not that different than soviet Pravda, as reality, but on HN typically there are a cohort of people who look under the tree, no one is immune to propaganda, no one can really know the truth but dissecting news enough to understand what's real and what's manufactured at a certain level is easy.