4 ms·

Feels to me, the mechanics as described hold for all non-cashflow assets with limited supply (e.g., art, collectibles etc.). And yes, markets there can collapse

Feels to me, the mechanics as described hold for all non-cashflow assets with limited supply (e.g., art, collectibles etc.). And yes, markets there can collapse if new generations of buyers don't turn up (I think that is happening/has happened a bit with postage stamps, for example). Sometimes, other people will do the evangelizing, though, like museums "pushing" artists and thereby aiding valuations.

mjburgess 5y ago
Sure the art market (c. $70bn world wide, ie., tiny) is also controlled by a tiny number of players, and the high-end is ran largely as a tax (or, and) money-laundering scam. It seems no co-incidence that crypto people running their Ponzi scheme tried to hijack the art market. However art pieces themselves have an "open, efficient, equilibrium" market price, in that, people actually want to own art to enjoy it. If the art market were broken up, and all the tax incentives ended, and all buyers forced to use public pricing -- then we'd see prices plummet... but not all the way, some pieces would still fetch millions. I think crypto is a pure scam, more radical than art and more radical than MLM cosmetics -- you're not holding anything of value absent fools. There are no people who "want to enjoy their coins", there are only fools. Ie., people who want to pass-the-items-on after rent-seeking (ie., holding it until the fools pile up).
- simulate-me 5y ago
  I don’t think the enjoyment of art is the driving factor at the high end. High end art serves as a store of value and a status symbol. Surprising similar to bitcoin!
- RandomLensman 5y ago
  With a lot of art just stored tax efficiently, not sure how relevant "enjoyment" currently really is at the upper end of the market (maybe enjoyment of possession?). Also, people could enjoy holding coins, wouldn't rule that out. Arguably, being part of the crypto community does seem to bring some people joy.
  - long_time_gone 5y ago
    > With a lot of art just stored tax efficiently, not sure how relevant "enjoyment" currently really is at the upper end of the market (maybe enjoyment of possession?). On the flip side, are millions of people who pay money to simply view art every day in cities around the world. That seems like pretty strong evidence that people get "enjoyment" from it. > Arguably, being part of the crypto community does seem to bring some people joy. I'd guess it's the part about the rapidly rising prices that gives them joy.
    - RandomLensman 5y ago
      The contention was that price formation in art could in principle be driven by enjoyment not that people in general don't enjoy art. What if art also always has a social signaling component to its price? Whether is it rising prices or community that gives people joy in crypto I have no data on - are there any infomative studies around?
      - long_time_gone 5y ago
        > Whether is it rising prices or community that gives people joy in crypto I have no data on - are there any infomative studies around? I'm not sure about there being "joy" in crypto currencies. This article [1] argues the exact opposite, but isn't a study of any kind. I'd be interested to see the average rates of depression among crypto owners. Gangs give people a sense of community (maybe we call that "joy"), but they aren't good for people's health long-term. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/akvn8z/crypto-bad-for-mental-health https://www.vice.com/en/article/akvn8z/crypto-bad-for-mental...
  - criddell 5y ago
    Because the current owner of piece is just storing it in some airport warehouse doesn't mean there aren't others who would like the work to be hanging in their home or available to see in a gallery. A private key doesn't do any of the things that great (and no-so-great) art can do for us.
wyager 5y ago
Don't forget gold and USD.
- RandomLensman 5y ago
  USD supply isn't really limited. If you mean that societies can choose to change currency, yes, of course.

mjburgess 5y ago

Sure the art market (c. $70bn world wide, ie., tiny) is also controlled by a tiny number of players, and the high-end is ran largely as a tax (or, and) money-laundering scam. It seems no co-incidence that crypto people running their Ponzi scheme tried to hijack the art market. However art pieces themselves have an "open, efficient, equilibrium" market price, in that, people actually want to own art to enjoy it. If the art market were broken up, and all the tax incentives ended, and all buyers forced to use public pricing -- then we'd see prices plummet... but not all the way, some pieces would still fetch millions. I think crypto is a pure scam, more radical than art and more radical than MLM cosmetics -- you're not holding anything of value absent fools. There are no people who "want to enjoy their coins", there are only fools. Ie., people who want to pass-the-items-on after rent-seeking (ie., holding it until the fools pile up).

simulate-me 5y ago
I don’t think the enjoyment of art is the driving factor at the high end. High end art serves as a store of value and a status symbol. Surprising similar to bitcoin!
RandomLensman 5y ago
With a lot of art just stored tax efficiently, not sure how relevant "enjoyment" currently really is at the upper end of the market (maybe enjoyment of possession?). Also, people could enjoy holding coins, wouldn't rule that out. Arguably, being part of the crypto community does seem to bring some people joy.
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  > With a lot of art just stored tax efficiently, not sure how relevant "enjoyment" currently really is at the upper end of the market (maybe enjoyment of possession?). On the flip side, are millions of people who pay money to simply view art every day in cities around the world. That seems like pretty strong evidence that people get "enjoyment" from it. > Arguably, being part of the crypto community does seem to bring some people joy. I'd guess it's the part about the rapidly rising prices that gives them joy.
  - RandomLensman 5y ago
    The contention was that price formation in art could in principle be driven by enjoyment not that people in general don't enjoy art. What if art also always has a social signaling component to its price? Whether is it rising prices or community that gives people joy in crypto I have no data on - are there any infomative studies around?
    - long_time_gone 5y ago
      > Whether is it rising prices or community that gives people joy in crypto I have no data on - are there any infomative studies around? I'm not sure about there being "joy" in crypto currencies. This article [1] argues the exact opposite, but isn't a study of any kind. I'd be interested to see the average rates of depression among crypto owners. Gangs give people a sense of community (maybe we call that "joy"), but they aren't good for people's health long-term. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/akvn8z/crypto-bad-for-mental-health https://www.vice.com/en/article/akvn8z/crypto-bad-for-mental...
- criddell 5y ago
  Because the current owner of piece is just storing it in some airport warehouse doesn't mean there aren't others who would like the work to be hanging in their home or available to see in a gallery. A private key doesn't do any of the things that great (and no-so-great) art can do for us.

wyager 5y ago

Don't forget gold and USD.

RandomLensman 5y ago
USD supply isn't really limited. If you mean that societies can choose to change currency, yes, of course.