15 ms·

‘We’re a Cult’: Inside Bitcoin’s Shameless Hypefest

181 points by throwaway4good 5y ago

sunshinerag 5y ago
- mjburgess 5y ago
  Crypto is "cult by design" in much the way all greater-fool scams are. Namely, since coins are incredibly deflationary, wealth accumulates to a small number of early-stakers whilst the long-tail people buying-in provide their liquidity (/cash) so they can exit at an extreme multiple of buy-in. Everyone is relying on "more fools" to create a longer-tail from their stating position so they can exit higher. Meaning, whatever position you enter at, you have to evangelise like crazy. I dont think anyone has ever yet explained how this is meant to function as a currency. Indeed, crypto people are dead-set on explaining everything except how this works as a currency. Long-and-short of it: extremely deflationary assets are terrible currencies.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sunshinerag 5y ago
    Exit to what? And why?
    - mjburgess 5y ago
      Well if tesla accepts bitcoin, exit to telas. The vast majority of wealth in the system is had by early-stakers. So accepting bitcoin doesnt mean you or I get to buy a tesla. It means someone who bought-in 10yrs ago gets to buy 20. A nice exit.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      How are you able to spend on things like housing and food in your day-to-day? Surely you’re exiting some of your invaluable crypto savings to pay for things. Assuming you are a pure-crypto person, and not a fiat-using heretic.
  - blablabla123 5y ago
    I think Bitcoin also lives from the fact that there is complex Mathematics and Financial reasoning behind that usually nobody thinks about because it just works. (Great cult material) So any time someone explains Bitcoin to an outsider, the outsider will be overwhelmed by unverifiable facts and astonished by people who made a lot of money with it. Also I don't buy anymore that Bitcoin is resilient to inflation. Inflation is a financial symptom but caused by a failing real economy. Dividing out the inflation just leads to other malfunctions...
  - strathmeyer 5y ago
    Why would someone need to explain how a currency functions as a currency? If you're too dumb to get it, that's on you.
bhaak 5y ago
Is that news? The Bitcoin community has always had strong religious undertones.
Quindecillion 5y ago
Some pretty sad stuff in there about the lady putting her retirement savings into NFTs and hoping they "pay off". Lots of people are going to get hurt by scams like "crypto" and NFTs. And yet, these articles always conveniently manage to leave out lots of positive things about Bitcoin. There was plenty of stupid stuff at the conference, but there was good stuff too. Here are some worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4sMsI8z7U&list=PLe0djdakvnFZ2C7DMjQfiuqCtbxk0ZTsz&index=23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4sMsI8z7U&list=PLe0djdakvn... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcTDF8Oh434&list=PLe0djdakvnFZ2C7DMjQfiuqCtbxk0ZTsz&index=14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcTDF8Oh434&list=PLe0djdakvn... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Q-HPCJ57k&list=PLe0djdakvnFZ2C7DMjQfiuqCtbxk0ZTsz&index=16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Q-HPCJ57k&list=PLe0djdakvn...
- AviationAtom 5y ago
  Investing in crypto for the long-term isn't necessarily bad, people just need to limit it to no more than 2-3% of their funds, as it is very much a speculative investment.
  - Quindecillion 5y ago
    That's funny because I don't see saving my money in Bitcoin as "speculative" at all. I see it as long-term savings for retirement and inheritance. There's no trading going on. As they say, time in the market is better than timing the market.
    - sp332 5y ago
      I think that's a saying for the stock market, not commodities.
      - AviationAtom 5y ago
        The change from it being regulated as a security to a commodity will be most interesting. They're also supposed to be dropping tax reporting on transactions lower than $600, IIRC. This could open up the door for crypto to be practically used as an everyday currency. I think the problem still lies in what was hit on in the article: nobody wants to wait 20 minutes for their transaction to confirm fully. Additionally, nobody wants to pay a $20 ETH gas fee for a $2 "microtransaction". I do see exciting developments happening with crypto though, especially with technologies like zkRollup, which would bundle transactions, to bypass the high ETH gas fees. Right now I think XLM and Nano are among the few examples of crypto currencies that are both fast enough, and have low enough transaction fees, to actually be practical for utilization as a currency for day to day purchases. Though perhaps someone can correct me if I'm failing to mention better options.
mjburgess 5y ago
Reposting my comment (which is leaf'd off a dead one): Crypto is "cult by design" in much the way all greater-fool scams are. Namely, since coins are incredibly deflationary, wealth accumulates to a small number of early-stakers whilst the long-tail people buying-in provide their liquidity (/cash) so they can exit at an extreme multiple of buy-in. Everyone is relying on "more fools" to create a longer-tail from their stating position so they can exit higher. Meaning, whatever position you enter at, you have to evangelise like crazy. I dont think anyone has ever yet explained how this is meant to function as a currency. Indeed, crypto people are dead-set on explaining everything except how this works as a currency. Long-and-short of it: extremely deflationary assets are terrible currencies. One reason they're terrible is they transfer power over the economic system to early-stakers, as they have all the wealth. This is just feudalism where land=coin. So crypto people, sitting on a lot of coins, who urge adoption arent trying to "free" the economy, they're trying to own it. It is just a bigger-fool scam, so it wont work -- at some point the tail won't be long enough, and it'll collapse (but this could take decades, as some scams do keep finding enough people to sustain them). So I dont think there's much danger in it -- but, lets be clear: any corporation which accepts bitcoins is thereby recognising an essentially feudal type of economic power. Most holders of coin-wealth didn't earn it, they are taking it from the fools currently buying-in. Accepting crypto as currency, means giving early-stakes a way of exiting the scam at incredible multiples.
- tromp 5y ago
  > Namely, since coins are incredibly deflationary Not all. Some have more reasonable emissions like one per second forever, the simplest possible disinflationary emission, that minimizes wealth concentration.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    How does a fixed minting rate prevent inflation? Production is elastic and typically grows over time, which is why the Fed is constantly adjusting the dials on money creation (both directly and indirectly.)
    - 5y ago
mypastself 5y ago
The author reports on cults, but doesn’t draw many specific parallels with Bitcoin in this article. She omits any insight into what qualifies a group as a cult, and how those characteristics apply to this particular one. She also seems to equate the broader group with its most enthusiastic members. By the same token (heh), you might as well call Star Wars a cult after attending one convention. Which, to be fair…
- luciusdomitius 5y ago
  The Daily Beast is a low-quality far-left tabloid. The intellectual level of the comments in this thread perfectly reflects this.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  doesn't draw any specific parallels? Directly from the article "The religious overtones carried over into a happy hour at a nearby hotel, where I met two men who had helped put on an outside event for Christian Bitcoiners called Thank God for Bitcoin[...] Hawthorne, a former pastor and executive director of a Christian nonprofit, said he thought of Bitcoin as a primer for religion: Both required evangelizing, conversion, and community building. Also, both required acceptance of a higher power you cannot control: just like you can’t rewrite the Bible, you can’t change the rules of bitcoin." Bitcoin fits pretty squarely into prosperity gospel type logic that is so prevalent in the US. In this case it's not even an analogy, she's literally talking to a bitcoin pastor lol. I'm sure you can draw more parallels yourself. Bitcoin has its own version of depluralization ("maximalism"), it's own eschatology in the form of the final collapse of the system when judgement is rendered upon the fiat users , and so on.
  - mypastself 5y ago
    That’s drawing parallels with religion rather than a cult. Surely the author should understand the difference.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      Many American Christian movements are de-facto cults. That there's so many of them that they have achieved mainstream recognition doesn't diminish that fact, it just speaks to the prevalence of cult-like thinking in the US. There's no need to engage in pedantic semantics to attempt to discredit the author.
ufo 5y ago
Does "Nakamoto is dead" count as a conspiracy? I thought it was one of the leading explanations for their disappearance.
- 3np 5y ago
  Many believe it was Hal Finney, so yes and I don't see how that would be a conspiracy.
  - exdsq 5y ago
    I'm not so sure. When he was cryogenically preserved he moved his cryptocurrency to funds/charities/families but the Satoshi accounts were not touched. I bet he knew who Satoshi was, but seems weird to me that he'd not have donated from all of his accounts when he knew he was going to die as he seems to me to be quite altruistic (I'm on a mailing list he used to be quite active in and went through the archives recently out of interest to see his initial comments on bitcoin). Saying this there's always an off-chance he stored his mnemonic in memory and in a hundred years he could be the richest person in the world, so there's a financial incentive to work on cryogenics to bring him back with a big medical bill lol. That'd be some pretty awesome sci-fi.
civilized 5y ago
Hey, let's not be too hard on Bitcoin, it's turned out to be a great way to catch pedophiles! https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-video-crypto-anonymity-myth/ https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-v... Also I love this: > Across the hall, a woman with overlined lips and bleach blond hair was selling a concept called “CommuniSea,” in which members purchase shares in a luxury megayacht with on-board chefs and private trainers. Each “share” gave members a certain number of points, which translated to a certain number of nights on the yacht—all for the low starting price of $395,000 a year. > “So it’s like a timeshare,” I said to the woman. > “No, no, no,” she assured me. “It’s like an NFT.”
- nukemaster 5y ago
  Unlike a lot of people here I'm very pro crypto^ but at that rate you could get a very nice boat and just pay someone to maintain it for you. Most of the nicer deckboats cost a third-half of that new. ^(people gripe about a deflationary currency but we're all experiencing the pain of an inflationary one, and the ease with which crypto is converted lets people try out different ideas quickly, IMO it's still underrated.)
superkuh 5y ago
This is just sour grapes attacking the one cryptocurrency that actually works and has utility. I understand people are upset at the broader concept of cryptocurrency since pretty much every single project in this domain since 2015 has been a scam, but Bitcoin actually is useful, actually was grassroots, and evolved into stability before the normal scammers from finance shifted to ruining any cryptocurrency project that tried to start. I use Bitcoin regularly to pay for services, and less rarely, to pay for actual physical objects like computer hardware, or donate to the EFF, wikileaks, or Erowid. Getting around credit card company financial blockades is extremely important. Bitcoin works great. It's worked great for the last 8 years. I never got rich and never tried. Maybe the "cult" dudes should try treating it as a currency instead of an investment and step out of the finance bro mindset.
incomingpain 5y ago
Crypto is a greater-fool investment, hence the cultfest. You require someone else to come with their money in order for you to exit successfully. The difference with say stock market is that theoretically you're buying future cashflows. Similarly can never exist for crypto. The interesting thing is that it's a bad comparison. You should compare crypto not to stocks but rather fiat currency. Fiat currency is a greater fool investment but worse. The central bank goes and prints oodles of new money effectively taking purchasing power from you. Even worse than that. They like to pretend to give you 0.1% in your savings account. You are only losing slightly slower. Being inflationary is bad for you personally; good for the economy; and great for central banks who can print money to fund deficit spending. What is crypto even anyone? It's really just minting your own currency with a clear set of rules and letting transactions happen. What is a '99 Mclaren F1? It's also a deflationary currency with unusual set of rules to let transactions happen for the rich. What difference is a Picasso or other painting from crypto? Certainly deflationary. Fundamentally the rich have been playing the deflationary currency game for a long time using paintings, hypercars, antique coins, stocks, etc. Pick your poison to avoid the central bank inflation game. Stop paying for the government's deficits by holding fiat currency.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  I mean. Yes. That's kind of the point of inflationary currency: to encourage capital investment in industry and innovation via stocks, bonds, or whatever. The fact that you're discouraged from holding onto raw USD is not a bug, it's a feature. Maybe even the whole point. And it's not just the rich that are "forced" to invest their money in other stuff. Take a look at what assets typical 401ks and pensions funds contain.
  - seibelj 5y ago
    Why am I constantly told that mindless consumption is some great evil yet the entire of society is designed to encourage consumption through constant devaluation of the currency? I see no argument why stable value is not the best of all worlds. Deflation and inflation both have economic warping side effects. With a constant price I only invest when I truly believe there is a real return, not just trying to keep up with inflation.
boredumb 5y ago
Disclaimer: I can't stand crypto.. The daily beast is to journalism what dogecoin is to crypto, minus the utility or self awareness of being a joke. I'm not even sure why their domain is allowed on HN, sincerely.
Traster 5y ago
I decided to go and look at the list of speakers for Bitcoin 2022, because I wasn't very impressed with the introduction: > Speakers ranged from Jordan Peterson, the controversial psychologist and anti-political-correctness firebrand, to NFL quarterback and anti-vaxxer Aaron Rodgers. It's like sure, pick out the 2 nuttiest people in the list and pretend they're representative. But I looked it up and it's actually quite funny[1], there's a weird number of celebs, but also someone built a time machine and Peter Thiel from 25 years ago appears to be attending (as far as I can tell from that picture. But laying that aside there are a fair few VC guys and a fair few actual technology people attending. Sure, the sports personalities are pretty obviously grifters, but they're not the only ones there. I think the grandma investing the money is the biggest insight into the bitcoin mindset. There's an attitude that people are moving to bitcoin because they view it as a way out of their poverty. They can't keep working like this. I think we have to look at why that is, and the obvious answer is because as wealth inequality has skyrocketed it has pushed the vast majority of ordinary people into a position where they can't imagine living comfortably from their earnings. Given that they can't get to the lifestyle they want through work, they start to look for other more desperate avenues and that's where bitcoin comes in. The problem is that if this is correct it means the next time the economy crashes and people need every penny to live they'll pull out of crypto and it'll fall like a stone. [1]:https://b.tc/conference/speakers https://b.tc/conference/speakers
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  The problem with the grandmas is that once they've bought in who is left? Who do they sell their coin to when they are leaving? And who is left to prop the price up after them so that it continues to be an investment? Once the grandma's are in what is going to cause it to continue to appreciate?
  - lupire 5y ago
    Grandma dies and takes her keys with her, deflating the currency and boosting the value of your stake.
  - _hcuq 5y ago
spir 5y ago
As somebody who has studied crypto full-time for years, here's an opinionated list of things that I wish was more widely understood about crypto - BTC is a trash-grade asset because it's practically useless and proof of work is extremely expensive for BTC holders (and environmentally damaging) - programmatic public chains, especially Ethereum, are cost-efficient and extremely useful. They will become one of the foundations of the global economy - proof of stake is more egalitarian than proof of work because while the rich get richer in both, only in PoS do the rich get richer at the same rate as everybody else, whereas in PoW there are significant mining economies of scale - ETH and other programmatic public chain tokens are more like Amazon or Apple stock than like Bitcoin because programmatic public chains have significant fee revenues that accumulate to token holders, and these fees are defended by public chain network effects from accumulated apps, tokens, and protocols
- Gosper 5y ago
  > BTC is a trash-grade asset because it's practically useless and proof of work is extremely expensive for BTC holders (and environmentally damaging) A permissionless settlement network open to anyone in the world, with a sensibly staid development policy is as useful and valuable as... well, check whatever the market participants value it at. I suggest you read more widely and deeply to build an understanding of energy production, consumption, transmission, the externalities of each step across then environment, society, and civilization. Bitcoin incentivises efficiency in energy production (and use in it's narrow sector) and the development of increasingly more efficient energy sources. By virtue of having no marginal cost per energy unit produced, renewables are the most cost efficient now and only more so as the days march on given renewable's technological headroom to grow. > programmatic public chains, especially Ethereum, are cost-efficient and extremely useful. Don't forget naively complex, and liable to usurpation by the ever next fast growing challenger networks for the same at present hyped up use cases. > They will become one of the foundations of the global economy Not with ever shifting goalposts, issuance rate, and pre-mine shaped like this https://www.lynalden.com/ethereum-analysis/#Ethereum%20Monetary%20Policy https://www.lynalden.com/ethereum-analysis/#Ethereum%20Monet... Along with an inability to map to and represent the assets, subjective agreement, and legal richness of the outside/real world. > proof of stake is more egalitarian than proof of work because while the rich get richer in both, only in PoS do the rich get richer at the same rate as everybody else, whereas in PoW there are significant mining economies of scale In PoW the compute and energy rich participants of the network get richer, these miners are not necessarily the same as the monetarily rich. They are rewarded further riches in exchange for their service in producing unforgeably costly proof that they have explored a given mathematical space and that as a side effect a statistically likely amount of time has elapsed and concomitant quantity of computation has occurred such that the history of the network is ever less likely to be able to be edited.
Finnucane 5y ago
Wow, Jordan Petersen, Aaron Rogers, Peter Thiel...I guess if you really wanted to have an event that screamed 'bitcoin is for douchebros' that would be it.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  > Strawman
fortran77 5y ago
There are many things that keep me away from bitcoin: 1. It doesn't seem to be useful for buying things. It takes a long time to complete a transaction, and it's surprisingly traceable. 2. It's not a stable place to store money 3. There are many, many, scams 4. People get robbed all the time, even from the most popular services like "coinbase." (I just learned about a few of the coinbase security holes from https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/112/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/112/ )
- satronaut 5y ago
  look into the lightning network
  - lupire 5y ago
    Lightning network is non-cryprocurrency ledger that happens to use Bitcoin for eventual settlement. If you are going to use lightning you may as well use a normal debit card.
    - satronaut 5y ago
      lightning has the perks of being instantaneous, free or nearly free, and not tied to a specific currency. With visa, it's not instantaneous, charges vendors a 3% tx fee each time a card is used, and requires international clearing houses for foreign payments
    - datadata 5y ago
      I'm not sure how "non-cryprocurrency" applies to lightning in anyway. Lightning channels are denominated only in bitcoin. There is no non-cryptocurrency aspect of it. Lightning has many properties that a debit card does not. For example not having to trust a bank to grant you an account, and supporting peer to peer transactions without intermediaries. Debit card transactions are limited from below by fees, fees on lightning are fractions of a penny, thus allowing micropayments that are not feasible with a debit card.
Workaccount2 5y ago
Bitcoin was a lot cooler when it was just an internet pet project. Buying VPN time all starry eyed with a few bitcoin...
spaetzleesser 5y ago
Crypto is basically the same as the .COM bubble in the end 90s. There is some real technology that may be useful but most fanboys don’t have the slightest idea what this is about other than it being supposed to make them rich. They complain about people not “having faith”, they latch on some vague news, “gurus” everywhere. It’s exactly the same. Add real estate in 2008 and now to the list. It’s kind of sad that our economy focuses so much on bubbles and get rich quick schemes while eroding the benefits for workers who do a solid job on real things.
- casralad 5y ago
  Pets.com and WebVan were exemplary of the dotcom bubble. They had insane valuations and a problematic business model, but investors poured money in because of hype. But both those services are legitimate, profitable through other companies today. They were just too early, maybe too hyped. I got groceries from WebVan in the 90s. I bought books from Amazon in the 90s. I used Yahoo.com to find information in the 90s. These were services with value even if the companies didn't make it. Crypto has provided no value other than making some people money. It has solved no problem. In more than a decade, crypto has still not found a viable use-case.
  - exdsq 5y ago
    > In more than a decade, crypto has still not found a viable use-case. In my eyes, having an alternative to high-inflation currencies around South America and Africa is one hell of a use case.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      >> In more than a decade, crypto has still not found a viable use-case. > In my eyes, having an alternative to high-inflation currencies around South America and Africa is one hell of a use case. No it isn't. Why? US dollars and gold work far better for that use case than cryptocurrency.
      - exdsq 5y ago
stiltzkin 5y ago
HN giving the props to a daily best article...
theknocker 5y ago
Epiphany21 5y ago
These anti-crypto articles coming out lately are just a feedback loop of negativity designed to get people sucked into a mini online tribal conflict so that they don't start build parallel economies and free themselves. Even though this outlet went and found some of the most fringe and inflammatory advocates for blockchain technologies, they still managed to sneak a few truths through. Cryto-currencies are generally good for two things: Making transactions almost impossible to stop and difficult to track, and storing wealth in place where the powers that be can't easily steal it from you. This is why the owners of legacy financial institutions and the mass of corporate serfs on their payroll hate it.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  Bitcoin cannot be banned. :)
  - shuckles 5y ago
    Try making a big purchase with it in China.
  - wollsmoth 5y ago
    Well, bitcoin still needs a point of entry. To buy, most people go to their bank, transfer to an exchange and make a trade from fiat to btc. If western banking decided to ban this kind of exchange it'd be pretty close to a bitcoin ban. I don't think anyone is going to trade large amounts of physical cash for bitcoins like they used to before exchanges.
    - danlugo92 5y ago
      Yes they can ban the exchanges, but the US and Europe didn't and haven't done so, that's the biggest economy bloc in the world, who cares if african country #12 bans it. Google "game theory bitcoin".
- shuckles 5y ago
  The market demand for making sanctioned transactions is quite small. For the average person, it’s basically nothing. For the prosumer, it might be drugs or prediction markets, and especially the latter is already legal in many jurisdictions.
AviationAtom 5y ago
I would have said it was a cult, before mainstream companies bought in on the idea. What the product will look like in the long-term is anyone's guess, but I do have a hunch it will remain in some form.
cerol 5y ago
In the end, it's about supply and demand. Crypto's demographics match with one of the most disillusioned generations ever, young adults who crave above all, hope for the future. Blockchain makes enough promises to make the future look bright, and it's complex enough so you don't feel guilty about not understanding it fully, and why it most likely won't deliver on its promises. Sadly, it's the perfect scam.
JKCalhoun 5y ago
> “We now live in a world where the U.S. dollar is failing, the euro is failing, the yuan is failing, we’re dying. And then boom—bitcoin!” he continued. “There’s hope now.” This to me is closer to the heart of what has me worried. Forget Bitcoin, there is a large swath of the public that have become disenfranchised with the way the world is. They see the (other) markets as rigged and see themselves as little people, powerless. Bitcoin, QAnon (sorry to bring that up but seems relevant?) are signs of people looking for a world in which they are no longer disenfranchised. We appear to be failing as a society.
- _hcuq 5y ago
  People were always disenfranchised. The internet has become a grievance machine. Instead of watching a sitcom after dinner, a lot of people spend every spare moment stoking their grievances on FB, Twitter, Youtube etc.
gregsm918 5y ago
Hello, BlockFi.com locked my account with $25,000 inside, around 80 days ago, and they are not willing to process a refund. They are asking for a court order just for them to process a refund. After seeing a bunch of info about the products BlockFi offers that seemed attractive at first glance, I decided to open an account. Within minutes the account was ready to take the money out from my bank. No photo identification required, by the way. I started depositing money, and seemed easy compared to other services of this kind. After a while, I thought it would be a good idea to secure some funds by processing two Crypto withdrawal requests. I've been waiting for two days (the minimum waiting time offered for a Crypto withdrawal), but instead of processing my requests they asked me for verification via ID/Passport, photos/video using my phone..(a regular request of any CEX), but what's strange, it's that they will ask for Verification after they allow you to deposit large amounts of money, and not before, as any other service does. I wonder what would happen with your money in a strange scenario where (for some reason) you can't successfully pass the Verification. But... that was Ok. I successfully processed the verification within minutes. Then, surprise..... Because I had two pending withdrawal requests for two different Crypto coins, even if one of them was for a very small amount being executed just for me to understand their withdrawal process, BlockFi asked me to get Verified once again. Not a different Verification process. Just the same one I had successfully executed minutes ago. No problem! I did it again "You're all set !". Within minutes, I got an email notifying that my BlockFi account was locked. No explanation other than asking to read their TOS, and the following notice..... "Should you be unable to retrieve funds through your bank, you must wait 60 days from receipt of this email before requesting a manual wire withdrawal to the source bank account. Please note that we may require identity verification to process the withdrawal. Note: Any requests made to BlockFi about your account funds will be ignored until we can process a return of funds which will only be eligible after 60 days. Do not reach out to BlockFi until after this date. " The 60 days have passed and even though I used every possible method to contact BlockFi, it doesn't seem like anyone's going to reply. (Several support tickets or by sending any kind of message using any possible form on their Help/Support pages, trying to call them using the phone number listed over their Help page, sending message via some of the previous support tickets that were used around two months ago to communicate with them..and more.. Let's not forget that a considerable amount of money is still with BlockFi, and my account is still blocked. If that can't be called an extremely frustrating situation, I'm curious to hear another :) . --------- UPDATE Finally I've been contacted, being informed that they will return my money...soon. This is definitely good news, but ... I still find myself in a "strange" situation. Let me explain: When BlockFi locked my account they said: "At this time, we are not able to return any funds to you directly. We’d recommend that you contact your bank and request that any ACH transfers you made to your BlockFi account be canceled and reversed. Should you be unable to retrieve funds through your bank, you must wait 60 days from receipt of this email before requesting a manual wire withdrawal to the source bank account. " I thought it would be faster to follow BlockFi's advice by asking the bank to proceed as per their instructions,but a nightmare was about to start. Shortly after asking the bank to return transfers made by me (no scam or hack involved), they decided that something is not right, ending by closing my bank accounts. PERMANENTLY. So BlockFi will not be able to send a Wire Transfer as it will be automatically returned. But when they blocked my account, part of the money was in Crypto balances. I wonder what are the terms used to close my positions. Crypto coins rates have changed in the past 70 days. Maybe they will process my original withdrawal requests via crypto? Or will they accept my request to send my money to another bank account in my name? Also I wonder how they could have sent a Wire Transfer to an account that does not accept wires (if they were sent to BlockFi from a NeoBank). Not the case here, but just wonder... --- UPDATE BlockFi's final word is: "Any funds on the account will remain locked until BlockFi receives a court order to refund the funds" $25,000 of my money are locked and they also refuse a refund to the source bank account
QuantumGood 5y ago
Seeing so many impacts of Crypto outside of Crypto, it seems clear it's not going away and will continue to be "expected" to exist by many. Despite the mostly pyramid scheme nature of it, it looks likely to impact an entire generation in many, many ways.

sunshinerag 5y ago

mjburgess 5y ago
Crypto is "cult by design" in much the way all greater-fool scams are. Namely, since coins are incredibly deflationary, wealth accumulates to a small number of early-stakers whilst the long-tail people buying-in provide their liquidity (/cash) so they can exit at an extreme multiple of buy-in. Everyone is relying on "more fools" to create a longer-tail from their stating position so they can exit higher. Meaning, whatever position you enter at, you have to evangelise like crazy. I dont think anyone has ever yet explained how this is meant to function as a currency. Indeed, crypto people are dead-set on explaining everything except how this works as a currency. Long-and-short of it: extremely deflationary assets are terrible currencies.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sunshinerag 5y ago
  Exit to what? And why?
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    Well if tesla accepts bitcoin, exit to telas. The vast majority of wealth in the system is had by early-stakers. So accepting bitcoin doesnt mean you or I get to buy a tesla. It means someone who bought-in 10yrs ago gets to buy 20. A nice exit.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    How are you able to spend on things like housing and food in your day-to-day? Surely you’re exiting some of your invaluable crypto savings to pay for things. Assuming you are a pure-crypto person, and not a fiat-using heretic.
- blablabla123 5y ago
  I think Bitcoin also lives from the fact that there is complex Mathematics and Financial reasoning behind that usually nobody thinks about because it just works. (Great cult material) So any time someone explains Bitcoin to an outsider, the outsider will be overwhelmed by unverifiable facts and astonished by people who made a lot of money with it. Also I don't buy anymore that Bitcoin is resilient to inflation. Inflation is a financial symptom but caused by a failing real economy. Dividing out the inflation just leads to other malfunctions...
- strathmeyer 5y ago
  Why would someone need to explain how a currency functions as a currency? If you're too dumb to get it, that's on you.

bhaak 5y ago

Is that news? The Bitcoin community has always had strong religious undertones.

Quindecillion 5y ago

Some pretty sad stuff in there about the lady putting her retirement savings into NFTs and hoping they "pay off". Lots of people are going to get hurt by scams like "crypto" and NFTs. And yet, these articles always conveniently manage to leave out lots of positive things about Bitcoin. There was plenty of stupid stuff at the conference, but there was good stuff too. Here are some worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4sMsI8z7U&list=PLe0djdakvnFZ2C7DMjQfiuqCtbxk0ZTsz&index=23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4sMsI8z7U&list=PLe0djdakvn... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcTDF8Oh434&list=PLe0djdakvnFZ2C7DMjQfiuqCtbxk0ZTsz&index=14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcTDF8Oh434&list=PLe0djdakvn... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Q-HPCJ57k&list=PLe0djdakvnFZ2C7DMjQfiuqCtbxk0ZTsz&index=16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Q-HPCJ57k&list=PLe0djdakvn...

AviationAtom 5y ago
Investing in crypto for the long-term isn't necessarily bad, people just need to limit it to no more than 2-3% of their funds, as it is very much a speculative investment.
- Quindecillion 5y ago
  That's funny because I don't see saving my money in Bitcoin as "speculative" at all. I see it as long-term savings for retirement and inheritance. There's no trading going on. As they say, time in the market is better than timing the market.
  - sp332 5y ago
    I think that's a saying for the stock market, not commodities.
    - AviationAtom 5y ago
      The change from it being regulated as a security to a commodity will be most interesting. They're also supposed to be dropping tax reporting on transactions lower than $600, IIRC. This could open up the door for crypto to be practically used as an everyday currency. I think the problem still lies in what was hit on in the article: nobody wants to wait 20 minutes for their transaction to confirm fully. Additionally, nobody wants to pay a $20 ETH gas fee for a $2 "microtransaction". I do see exciting developments happening with crypto though, especially with technologies like zkRollup, which would bundle transactions, to bypass the high ETH gas fees. Right now I think XLM and Nano are among the few examples of crypto currencies that are both fast enough, and have low enough transaction fees, to actually be practical for utilization as a currency for day to day purchases. Though perhaps someone can correct me if I'm failing to mention better options.

mjburgess 5y ago

Reposting my comment (which is leaf'd off a dead one): Crypto is "cult by design" in much the way all greater-fool scams are. Namely, since coins are incredibly deflationary, wealth accumulates to a small number of early-stakers whilst the long-tail people buying-in provide their liquidity (/cash) so they can exit at an extreme multiple of buy-in. Everyone is relying on "more fools" to create a longer-tail from their stating position so they can exit higher. Meaning, whatever position you enter at, you have to evangelise like crazy. I dont think anyone has ever yet explained how this is meant to function as a currency. Indeed, crypto people are dead-set on explaining everything except how this works as a currency. Long-and-short of it: extremely deflationary assets are terrible currencies. One reason they're terrible is they transfer power over the economic system to early-stakers, as they have all the wealth. This is just feudalism where land=coin. So crypto people, sitting on a lot of coins, who urge adoption arent trying to "free" the economy, they're trying to own it. It is just a bigger-fool scam, so it wont work -- at some point the tail won't be long enough, and it'll collapse (but this could take decades, as some scams do keep finding enough people to sustain them). So I dont think there's much danger in it -- but, lets be clear: any corporation which accepts bitcoins is thereby recognising an essentially feudal type of economic power. Most holders of coin-wealth didn't earn it, they are taking it from the fools currently buying-in. Accepting crypto as currency, means giving early-stakes a way of exiting the scam at incredible multiples.

tromp 5y ago
> Namely, since coins are incredibly deflationary Not all. Some have more reasonable emissions like one per second forever, the simplest possible disinflationary emission, that minimizes wealth concentration.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  How does a fixed minting rate prevent inflation? Production is elastic and typically grows over time, which is why the Fed is constantly adjusting the dials on money creation (both directly and indirectly.)
  - 5y ago

mypastself 5y ago

The author reports on cults, but doesn’t draw many specific parallels with Bitcoin in this article. She omits any insight into what qualifies a group as a cult, and how those characteristics apply to this particular one. She also seems to equate the broader group with its most enthusiastic members. By the same token (heh), you might as well call Star Wars a cult after attending one convention. Which, to be fair…

luciusdomitius 5y ago
The Daily Beast is a low-quality far-left tabloid. The intellectual level of the comments in this thread perfectly reflects this.
Barrin92 5y ago
doesn't draw any specific parallels? Directly from the article "The religious overtones carried over into a happy hour at a nearby hotel, where I met two men who had helped put on an outside event for Christian Bitcoiners called Thank God for Bitcoin[...] Hawthorne, a former pastor and executive director of a Christian nonprofit, said he thought of Bitcoin as a primer for religion: Both required evangelizing, conversion, and community building. Also, both required acceptance of a higher power you cannot control: just like you can’t rewrite the Bible, you can’t change the rules of bitcoin." Bitcoin fits pretty squarely into prosperity gospel type logic that is so prevalent in the US. In this case it's not even an analogy, she's literally talking to a bitcoin pastor lol. I'm sure you can draw more parallels yourself. Bitcoin has its own version of depluralization ("maximalism"), it's own eschatology in the form of the final collapse of the system when judgement is rendered upon the fiat users , and so on.
- mypastself 5y ago
  That’s drawing parallels with religion rather than a cult. Surely the author should understand the difference.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    Many American Christian movements are de-facto cults. That there's so many of them that they have achieved mainstream recognition doesn't diminish that fact, it just speaks to the prevalence of cult-like thinking in the US. There's no need to engage in pedantic semantics to attempt to discredit the author.

ufo 5y ago

Does "Nakamoto is dead" count as a conspiracy? I thought it was one of the leading explanations for their disappearance.

3np 5y ago
Many believe it was Hal Finney, so yes and I don't see how that would be a conspiracy.
- exdsq 5y ago
  I'm not so sure. When he was cryogenically preserved he moved his cryptocurrency to funds/charities/families but the Satoshi accounts were not touched. I bet he knew who Satoshi was, but seems weird to me that he'd not have donated from all of his accounts when he knew he was going to die as he seems to me to be quite altruistic (I'm on a mailing list he used to be quite active in and went through the archives recently out of interest to see his initial comments on bitcoin). Saying this there's always an off-chance he stored his mnemonic in memory and in a hundred years he could be the richest person in the world, so there's a financial incentive to work on cryogenics to bring him back with a big medical bill lol. That'd be some pretty awesome sci-fi.

civilized 5y ago

Hey, let's not be too hard on Bitcoin, it's turned out to be a great way to catch pedophiles! https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-video-crypto-anonymity-myth/ https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-v... Also I love this: > Across the hall, a woman with overlined lips and bleach blond hair was selling a concept called “CommuniSea,” in which members purchase shares in a luxury megayacht with on-board chefs and private trainers. Each “share” gave members a certain number of points, which translated to a certain number of nights on the yacht—all for the low starting price of $395,000 a year. > “So it’s like a timeshare,” I said to the woman. > “No, no, no,” she assured me. “It’s like an NFT.”

nukemaster 5y ago
Unlike a lot of people here I'm very pro crypto^ but at that rate you could get a very nice boat and just pay someone to maintain it for you. Most of the nicer deckboats cost a third-half of that new. ^(people gripe about a deflationary currency but we're all experiencing the pain of an inflationary one, and the ease with which crypto is converted lets people try out different ideas quickly, IMO it's still underrated.)

superkuh 5y ago

This is just sour grapes attacking the one cryptocurrency that actually works and has utility. I understand people are upset at the broader concept of cryptocurrency since pretty much every single project in this domain since 2015 has been a scam, but Bitcoin actually is useful, actually was grassroots, and evolved into stability before the normal scammers from finance shifted to ruining any cryptocurrency project that tried to start. I use Bitcoin regularly to pay for services, and less rarely, to pay for actual physical objects like computer hardware, or donate to the EFF, wikileaks, or Erowid. Getting around credit card company financial blockades is extremely important. Bitcoin works great. It's worked great for the last 8 years. I never got rich and never tried. Maybe the "cult" dudes should try treating it as a currency instead of an investment and step out of the finance bro mindset.

incomingpain 5y ago

Crypto is a greater-fool investment, hence the cultfest. You require someone else to come with their money in order for you to exit successfully. The difference with say stock market is that theoretically you're buying future cashflows. Similarly can never exist for crypto. The interesting thing is that it's a bad comparison. You should compare crypto not to stocks but rather fiat currency. Fiat currency is a greater fool investment but worse. The central bank goes and prints oodles of new money effectively taking purchasing power from you. Even worse than that. They like to pretend to give you 0.1% in your savings account. You are only losing slightly slower. Being inflationary is bad for you personally; good for the economy; and great for central banks who can print money to fund deficit spending. What is crypto even anyone? It's really just minting your own currency with a clear set of rules and letting transactions happen. What is a '99 Mclaren F1? It's also a deflationary currency with unusual set of rules to let transactions happen for the rich. What difference is a Picasso or other painting from crypto? Certainly deflationary. Fundamentally the rich have been playing the deflationary currency game for a long time using paintings, hypercars, antique coins, stocks, etc. Pick your poison to avoid the central bank inflation game. Stop paying for the government's deficits by holding fiat currency.

AlexandrB 5y ago
I mean. Yes. That's kind of the point of inflationary currency: to encourage capital investment in industry and innovation via stocks, bonds, or whatever. The fact that you're discouraged from holding onto raw USD is not a bug, it's a feature. Maybe even the whole point. And it's not just the rich that are "forced" to invest their money in other stuff. Take a look at what assets typical 401ks and pensions funds contain.
- seibelj 5y ago
  Why am I constantly told that mindless consumption is some great evil yet the entire of society is designed to encourage consumption through constant devaluation of the currency? I see no argument why stable value is not the best of all worlds. Deflation and inflation both have economic warping side effects. With a constant price I only invest when I truly believe there is a real return, not just trying to keep up with inflation.

boredumb 5y ago

Disclaimer: I can't stand crypto.. The daily beast is to journalism what dogecoin is to crypto, minus the utility or self awareness of being a joke. I'm not even sure why their domain is allowed on HN, sincerely.

Traster 5y ago

I decided to go and look at the list of speakers for Bitcoin 2022, because I wasn't very impressed with the introduction: > Speakers ranged from Jordan Peterson, the controversial psychologist and anti-political-correctness firebrand, to NFL quarterback and anti-vaxxer Aaron Rodgers. It's like sure, pick out the 2 nuttiest people in the list and pretend they're representative. But I looked it up and it's actually quite funny[1], there's a weird number of celebs, but also someone built a time machine and Peter Thiel from 25 years ago appears to be attending (as far as I can tell from that picture. But laying that aside there are a fair few VC guys and a fair few actual technology people attending. Sure, the sports personalities are pretty obviously grifters, but they're not the only ones there. I think the grandma investing the money is the biggest insight into the bitcoin mindset. There's an attitude that people are moving to bitcoin because they view it as a way out of their poverty. They can't keep working like this. I think we have to look at why that is, and the obvious answer is because as wealth inequality has skyrocketed it has pushed the vast majority of ordinary people into a position where they can't imagine living comfortably from their earnings. Given that they can't get to the lifestyle they want through work, they start to look for other more desperate avenues and that's where bitcoin comes in. The problem is that if this is correct it means the next time the economy crashes and people need every penny to live they'll pull out of crypto and it'll fall like a stone. [1]:https://b.tc/conference/speakers https://b.tc/conference/speakers

SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
The problem with the grandmas is that once they've bought in who is left? Who do they sell their coin to when they are leaving? And who is left to prop the price up after them so that it continues to be an investment? Once the grandma's are in what is going to cause it to continue to appreciate?
- lupire 5y ago
  Grandma dies and takes her keys with her, deflating the currency and boosting the value of your stake.
- _hcuq 5y ago

spir 5y ago

As somebody who has studied crypto full-time for years, here's an opinionated list of things that I wish was more widely understood about crypto - BTC is a trash-grade asset because it's practically useless and proof of work is extremely expensive for BTC holders (and environmentally damaging) - programmatic public chains, especially Ethereum, are cost-efficient and extremely useful. They will become one of the foundations of the global economy - proof of stake is more egalitarian than proof of work because while the rich get richer in both, only in PoS do the rich get richer at the same rate as everybody else, whereas in PoW there are significant mining economies of scale - ETH and other programmatic public chain tokens are more like Amazon or Apple stock than like Bitcoin because programmatic public chains have significant fee revenues that accumulate to token holders, and these fees are defended by public chain network effects from accumulated apps, tokens, and protocols

Gosper 5y ago
> BTC is a trash-grade asset because it's practically useless and proof of work is extremely expensive for BTC holders (and environmentally damaging) A permissionless settlement network open to anyone in the world, with a sensibly staid development policy is as useful and valuable as... well, check whatever the market participants value it at. I suggest you read more widely and deeply to build an understanding of energy production, consumption, transmission, the externalities of each step across then environment, society, and civilization. Bitcoin incentivises efficiency in energy production (and use in it's narrow sector) and the development of increasingly more efficient energy sources. By virtue of having no marginal cost per energy unit produced, renewables are the most cost efficient now and only more so as the days march on given renewable's technological headroom to grow. > programmatic public chains, especially Ethereum, are cost-efficient and extremely useful. Don't forget naively complex, and liable to usurpation by the ever next fast growing challenger networks for the same at present hyped up use cases. > They will become one of the foundations of the global economy Not with ever shifting goalposts, issuance rate, and pre-mine shaped like this https://www.lynalden.com/ethereum-analysis/#Ethereum%20Monetary%20Policy https://www.lynalden.com/ethereum-analysis/#Ethereum%20Monet... Along with an inability to map to and represent the assets, subjective agreement, and legal richness of the outside/real world. > proof of stake is more egalitarian than proof of work because while the rich get richer in both, only in PoS do the rich get richer at the same rate as everybody else, whereas in PoW there are significant mining economies of scale In PoW the compute and energy rich participants of the network get richer, these miners are not necessarily the same as the monetarily rich. They are rewarded further riches in exchange for their service in producing unforgeably costly proof that they have explored a given mathematical space and that as a side effect a statistically likely amount of time has elapsed and concomitant quantity of computation has occurred such that the history of the network is ever less likely to be able to be edited.

Finnucane 5y ago

Wow, Jordan Petersen, Aaron Rogers, Peter Thiel...I guess if you really wanted to have an event that screamed 'bitcoin is for douchebros' that would be it.

danlugo92 5y ago
> Strawman

fortran77 5y ago

There are many things that keep me away from bitcoin: 1. It doesn't seem to be useful for buying things. It takes a long time to complete a transaction, and it's surprisingly traceable. 2. It's not a stable place to store money 3. There are many, many, scams 4. People get robbed all the time, even from the most popular services like "coinbase." (I just learned about a few of the coinbase security holes from https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/112/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/112/ )

satronaut 5y ago
look into the lightning network
- lupire 5y ago
  Lightning network is non-cryprocurrency ledger that happens to use Bitcoin for eventual settlement. If you are going to use lightning you may as well use a normal debit card.
  - satronaut 5y ago
    lightning has the perks of being instantaneous, free or nearly free, and not tied to a specific currency. With visa, it's not instantaneous, charges vendors a 3% tx fee each time a card is used, and requires international clearing houses for foreign payments
  - datadata 5y ago
    I'm not sure how "non-cryprocurrency" applies to lightning in anyway. Lightning channels are denominated only in bitcoin. There is no non-cryptocurrency aspect of it. Lightning has many properties that a debit card does not. For example not having to trust a bank to grant you an account, and supporting peer to peer transactions without intermediaries. Debit card transactions are limited from below by fees, fees on lightning are fractions of a penny, thus allowing micropayments that are not feasible with a debit card.

Workaccount2 5y ago

Bitcoin was a lot cooler when it was just an internet pet project. Buying VPN time all starry eyed with a few bitcoin...

spaetzleesser 5y ago

Crypto is basically the same as the .COM bubble in the end 90s. There is some real technology that may be useful but most fanboys don’t have the slightest idea what this is about other than it being supposed to make them rich. They complain about people not “having faith”, they latch on some vague news, “gurus” everywhere. It’s exactly the same. Add real estate in 2008 and now to the list. It’s kind of sad that our economy focuses so much on bubbles and get rich quick schemes while eroding the benefits for workers who do a solid job on real things.

casralad 5y ago
Pets.com and WebVan were exemplary of the dotcom bubble. They had insane valuations and a problematic business model, but investors poured money in because of hype. But both those services are legitimate, profitable through other companies today. They were just too early, maybe too hyped. I got groceries from WebVan in the 90s. I bought books from Amazon in the 90s. I used Yahoo.com to find information in the 90s. These were services with value even if the companies didn't make it. Crypto has provided no value other than making some people money. It has solved no problem. In more than a decade, crypto has still not found a viable use-case.
- exdsq 5y ago
  > In more than a decade, crypto has still not found a viable use-case. In my eyes, having an alternative to high-inflation currencies around South America and Africa is one hell of a use case.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    >> In more than a decade, crypto has still not found a viable use-case. > In my eyes, having an alternative to high-inflation currencies around South America and Africa is one hell of a use case. No it isn't. Why? US dollars and gold work far better for that use case than cryptocurrency.
    - exdsq 5y ago

stiltzkin 5y ago

HN giving the props to a daily best article...

theknocker 5y ago

Epiphany21 5y ago

These anti-crypto articles coming out lately are just a feedback loop of negativity designed to get people sucked into a mini online tribal conflict so that they don't start build parallel economies and free themselves. Even though this outlet went and found some of the most fringe and inflammatory advocates for blockchain technologies, they still managed to sneak a few truths through. Cryto-currencies are generally good for two things: Making transactions almost impossible to stop and difficult to track, and storing wealth in place where the powers that be can't easily steal it from you. This is why the owners of legacy financial institutions and the mass of corporate serfs on their payroll hate it.

danlugo92 5y ago
Bitcoin cannot be banned. :)
- shuckles 5y ago
  Try making a big purchase with it in China.
- wollsmoth 5y ago
  Well, bitcoin still needs a point of entry. To buy, most people go to their bank, transfer to an exchange and make a trade from fiat to btc. If western banking decided to ban this kind of exchange it'd be pretty close to a bitcoin ban. I don't think anyone is going to trade large amounts of physical cash for bitcoins like they used to before exchanges.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    Yes they can ban the exchanges, but the US and Europe didn't and haven't done so, that's the biggest economy bloc in the world, who cares if african country #12 bans it. Google "game theory bitcoin".
shuckles 5y ago
The market demand for making sanctioned transactions is quite small. For the average person, it’s basically nothing. For the prosumer, it might be drugs or prediction markets, and especially the latter is already legal in many jurisdictions.

AviationAtom 5y ago

I would have said it was a cult, before mainstream companies bought in on the idea. What the product will look like in the long-term is anyone's guess, but I do have a hunch it will remain in some form.

cerol 5y ago

In the end, it's about supply and demand. Crypto's demographics match with one of the most disillusioned generations ever, young adults who crave above all, hope for the future. Blockchain makes enough promises to make the future look bright, and it's complex enough so you don't feel guilty about not understanding it fully, and why it most likely won't deliver on its promises. Sadly, it's the perfect scam.

JKCalhoun 5y ago

> “We now live in a world where the U.S. dollar is failing, the euro is failing, the yuan is failing, we’re dying. And then boom—bitcoin!” he continued. “There’s hope now.” This to me is closer to the heart of what has me worried. Forget Bitcoin, there is a large swath of the public that have become disenfranchised with the way the world is. They see the (other) markets as rigged and see themselves as little people, powerless. Bitcoin, QAnon (sorry to bring that up but seems relevant?) are signs of people looking for a world in which they are no longer disenfranchised. We appear to be failing as a society.

_hcuq 5y ago
People were always disenfranchised. The internet has become a grievance machine. Instead of watching a sitcom after dinner, a lot of people spend every spare moment stoking their grievances on FB, Twitter, Youtube etc.

gregsm918 5y ago

Hello, BlockFi.com locked my account with $25,000 inside, around 80 days ago, and they are not willing to process a refund. They are asking for a court order just for them to process a refund. After seeing a bunch of info about the products BlockFi offers that seemed attractive at first glance, I decided to open an account. Within minutes the account was ready to take the money out from my bank. No photo identification required, by the way. I started depositing money, and seemed easy compared to other services of this kind. After a while, I thought it would be a good idea to secure some funds by processing two Crypto withdrawal requests. I've been waiting for two days (the minimum waiting time offered for a Crypto withdrawal), but instead of processing my requests they asked me for verification via ID/Passport, photos/video using my phone..(a regular request of any CEX), but what's strange, it's that they will ask for Verification after they allow you to deposit large amounts of money, and not before, as any other service does. I wonder what would happen with your money in a strange scenario where (for some reason) you can't successfully pass the Verification. But... that was Ok. I successfully processed the verification within minutes. Then, surprise..... Because I had two pending withdrawal requests for two different Crypto coins, even if one of them was for a very small amount being executed just for me to understand their withdrawal process, BlockFi asked me to get Verified once again. Not a different Verification process. Just the same one I had successfully executed minutes ago. No problem! I did it again "You're all set !". Within minutes, I got an email notifying that my BlockFi account was locked. No explanation other than asking to read their TOS, and the following notice..... "Should you be unable to retrieve funds through your bank, you must wait 60 days from receipt of this email before requesting a manual wire withdrawal to the source bank account. Please note that we may require identity verification to process the withdrawal. Note: Any requests made to BlockFi about your account funds will be ignored until we can process a return of funds which will only be eligible after 60 days. Do not reach out to BlockFi until after this date. " The 60 days have passed and even though I used every possible method to contact BlockFi, it doesn't seem like anyone's going to reply. (Several support tickets or by sending any kind of message using any possible form on their Help/Support pages, trying to call them using the phone number listed over their Help page, sending message via some of the previous support tickets that were used around two months ago to communicate with them..and more.. Let's not forget that a considerable amount of money is still with BlockFi, and my account is still blocked. If that can't be called an extremely frustrating situation, I'm curious to hear another :) . --------- UPDATE Finally I've been contacted, being informed that they will return my money...soon. This is definitely good news, but ... I still find myself in a "strange" situation. Let me explain: When BlockFi locked my account they said: "At this time, we are not able to return any funds to you directly. We’d recommend that you contact your bank and request that any ACH transfers you made to your BlockFi account be canceled and reversed. Should you be unable to retrieve funds through your bank, you must wait 60 days from receipt of this email before requesting a manual wire withdrawal to the source bank account. " I thought it would be faster to follow BlockFi's advice by asking the bank to proceed as per their instructions,but a nightmare was about to start. Shortly after asking the bank to return transfers made by me (no scam or hack involved), they decided that something is not right, ending by closing my bank accounts. PERMANENTLY. So BlockFi will not be able to send a Wire Transfer as it will be automatically returned. But when they blocked my account, part of the money was in Crypto balances. I wonder what are the terms used to close my positions. Crypto coins rates have changed in the past 70 days. Maybe they will process my original withdrawal requests via crypto? Or will they accept my request to send my money to another bank account in my name? Also I wonder how they could have sent a Wire Transfer to an account that does not accept wires (if they were sent to BlockFi from a NeoBank). Not the case here, but just wonder... --- UPDATE BlockFi's final word is: "Any funds on the account will remain locked until BlockFi receives a court order to refund the funds" $25,000 of my money are locked and they also refuse a refund to the source bank account

QuantumGood 5y ago

Seeing so many impacts of Crypto outside of Crypto, it seems clear it's not going away and will continue to be "expected" to exist by many. Despite the mostly pyramid scheme nature of it, it looks likely to impact an entire generation in many, many ways.