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It's definitively not, see the past: after WWII "the ally" promise not to expand to the est Europe, they breach the agreement with Berlin since the start, and t

by kkfx 5y ago

It's definitively not, see the past: after WWII "the ally" promise not to expand to the est Europe, they breach the agreement with Berlin since the start, and they keep going. They have, it's now history, planned invasion and destruction of "Russia" since WWII [1], when they start putting nukes near Soviet Union the Soviets rightly respond putting nukes in Cuba and you know the history. You know what neoliberals (western, mostly but not only anglophone ideology + some Russians in that case) have done after URSS collapse. What you call that? Oh, just to corroborate with USA neoliberal official sources https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html About EU: we do have the most advanced tech of the world, but we do not have natural resources, the nearest, developed and vast potential partner is the Russian Federation, witch is geographically Europe till the Urals (so Moscow and most developed areas included) and we share a vast border, so no third party geopolitical tension can endanger our supply chain. In the last decades Russian Federation have try to offer the olive branch few times [2] but NATO (USA/UK) pressures stop them. In the meantime Russians have made the EuroAsiatic Union (EAEU) and we can complete it, commerce was flourishing etc. Now? Just for Ukraine read the OSCE report about who have started the war, who are the criminal (well the most criminal, at least) and where arms came from: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf also if you really follow the news you'll easy discover that vast majority of war crime reported on medias are classify as fake in few days, by western sources, like Italian TV showing a cut-scene from the game War Thunder stating that's the bombardment of Kiev, crying mothers sold as Ukrainian (true) omitting that's not a 2022 picture but one from 2014 of Russian-speaking Ukrainians mothers after Euromaidan nazi massacre so "one the other side" or the pregnant influencer "forced to live the maternity by the bomb" that declare just few days after that Azov nazis force her and other to leave because they took the hospital for military reasons etc. Oh, I've no doubt that there are crimes on both sides, that happen in all wars, but definitively the genocide I see is of Russian-speaking Ukrainians by nazi militia armed by NATO, and no I'm not a Putin fan. BTW just demand yourself why bomb a hospital, a theater etc if that's not used for military reasons, missiles have a price, an error can always happen, a systematic bombing means wasted gears so a nonsense. I'm a nephew of decorated Italian Partisans from WWII I was trained from my childhood to spot nazis with and without uniforms, and these days I realize that Putin is a dictator, but the USA and UK are worst dictatorship then him, also against their own people interests, and being European my interest is on the opposite side of the front because my interest if form a real EU, not just a monetary one, a Democratic one, not a Barnum circle, having cheap and abundant Russian resources not skyrocketing prices before the war because EU neoliberals, son of those who have created original nazi and fascist regimes, want big profits against their own people interests, my interest is a Russian Federation detached from China because China need a war just to have food for it's enormous population and USA/UK need a war to counter China because loosing South America and the see dominance for them means being destroyed and unable to continue their cleptocratic policies so my interest is left the hitting each others while EU+EAEU remain aside an profit. No conspiracy theory there just history, geopolitics and basic simple reasoning instead of slavishly and acritical trust of propaganda, from all sides. [1] for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/cold-war-on-file/operation-unthinkable/ https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/cold... https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/operation-unthinkable-churchill-s-plans-to-invade-the-soviet-union/ https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/operation-unthink... then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot http://www.allworldwars.com/Dropshot%20-%20American%20Plan%20for%20War%20with%20the%20Soviet%20Union%201957.html http://www.allworldwars.com/Dropshot%20-%20American%20Plan%2... https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2268796/a-declassified-military-plan-reveals-how-the-usa-was-prepared-to-annihilate-the-ussr-with-terrifying-nuclear-force/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2268796/a-declassified-milit... [2] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/65899 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/65899 then https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-urges-vladimir-putin-direct-contact-france-germany-overture-russia/ https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-urges-vladimir... then https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210625-eu-leaders-reject-france-germany-proposal-for-summit-with-putin https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210625-eu-leaders-rejec... followed by https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/06/25/kremlin-regrets-eu-rejection-of-proposed-putin-summit-a74346 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/06/25/kremlin-regrets-eu... and slightly before https://tass.com/politics/1342189 https://tass.com/politics/1342189

BlueTemplar 5y ago
I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet also, even now, still buy Russian propaganda hook line and sinker ! Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! (And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre - in an age of WikiLeaks/Snowden (!!) - I mean, if Macron had ordered to open fire on the Gilet Jaunes manifestations killing a hundred, I would hope that a coup would have shortly followed, regardless of whether a significant fraction of the protesters were CIA agents !) I guess it's some combination of "the enemy of my enemy of my friend", and the sheer lack of interest in most (?) EU media (but especially the French one?) in the ex-URSS, resulting in a lack of competent specialists, resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation, after which Russian propaganda was quick to fill the resulting void (especially noticeable in the "alternative" medias like Agoravox since 2014).
- kkfx 5y ago
  > I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet Did you think OSCE publish Russian propaganda? The Atlantic Council? Rand corp? Because those are my cited sources... Beside that I'm not worried by USA propaganda but by propaganda in general and by the vast mass of vulnerable people that ingest it acritically: thanks to propaganda we already have had two world war, I think they was enough... > Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! Wars are done for interests, needs, not on moral basis there is no right or wrong side, just interest on one and another and also other sides. Best EU interest is the Russian side, best China and USA interest is keeping that war a long as possible to on one (USA/UK) side demolish a resurgent EU that was about to left NATO oppression and on the other (China) push Russian resources and military tech to China, witch means they'll be ready for WWIII in just few years. > And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! OSCE report? It's from an EU official body, hard to say it's Russian propaganda... Or another example https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s... just to add another I do not cite before. Or you prefer the Russie.NEI.Visions in English from the French IFRI to cite another definitively not putinian body? BTW you can find sources from The Diplomat, Foreign Policies and various others of the same kind, all you need is a honest web search... > And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre We have phone interceptions but it does not matter at all a single episode, what it matter is the macro level, witch means NATO expansion, NATO creation of nazi forces not even just in Ukraine but in all western EU, and not today but in few decades (did you remember op. Stay Behind, Aldo Moro killing etc? To cite some historical and well documented ones). We can't know the truth about a specific episode even if someone say it. We can instead know the global truth because at macro scale nothing can be really hidden for long. > resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation I suggest you to try the mirror test: how can you say that you have a clear understatement while those who think different are caught in Russian propaganda? How many reasonably official source of information you have read, looked for? I mean public institutions not generic press of any kind and any country. How much you followed in the timeline the news stream? How much you know about Ukraine, just in history terms (did you actual Ukraine was a Soviet-made country from 1954?), did you know who manage Ukrainian infrastructures especially oil&gas ones? (hint: USA, UK and Holland companies, like for Kazakhstan). Try to honestly reflect on those aspects. Than tell your conclusion. Oh, in evilness terms, did you remember the Iraq invasion based on claimed lies from some USA and UK élites about the Saddam mass destruction weapons that do not exists? Or the Afghanistan invasion based on the false claim they protect bin laden? Or the France ops in Libya when Qaddafi start to touch France-controlled CFA? Or Syria? Just to cite actual ones, but we can also came back to famous propaganda-made wars like Guatemala, the last strike of Eduard Bernays for the United Fruit co, those of Chiquita bananas between the rest.

by kkfx 5y ago

BlueTemplar 5y ago

I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet also, even now, still buy Russian propaganda hook line and sinker ! Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! (And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre - in an age of WikiLeaks/Snowden (!!) - I mean, if Macron had ordered to open fire on the Gilet Jaunes manifestations killing a hundred, I would hope that a coup would have shortly followed, regardless of whether a significant fraction of the protesters were CIA agents !) I guess it's some combination of "the enemy of my enemy of my friend", and the sheer lack of interest in most (?) EU media (but especially the French one?) in the ex-URSS, resulting in a lack of competent specialists, resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation, after which Russian propaganda was quick to fill the resulting void (especially noticeable in the "alternative" medias like Agoravox since 2014).

kkfx 5y ago
> I'm still trying to figure out how is it possible to be wary about USA propaganda yet Did you think OSCE publish Russian propaganda? The Atlantic Council? Rand corp? Because those are my cited sources... Beside that I'm not worried by USA propaganda but by propaganda in general and by the vast mass of vulnerable people that ingest it acritically: thanks to propaganda we already have had two world war, I think they was enough... > Even though we rarely had a war where the side that is in the wrong was so clear cut ! Wars are done for interests, needs, not on moral basis there is no right or wrong side, just interest on one and another and also other sides. Best EU interest is the Russian side, best China and USA interest is keeping that war a long as possible to on one (USA/UK) side demolish a resurgent EU that was about to left NATO oppression and on the other (China) push Russian resources and military tech to China, witch means they'll be ready for WWIII in just few years. > And it's not like this war hasn't been ongoing for the last 8 years ! OSCE report? It's from an EU official body, hard to say it's Russian propaganda... Or another example https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s... just to add another I do not cite before. Or you prefer the Russie.NEI.Visions in English from the French IFRI to cite another definitively not putinian body? BTW you can find sources from The Diplomat, Foreign Policies and various others of the same kind, all you need is a honest web search... > And we still don't have any concrete proof that, say, the CIA was (directly) behind the Maidan massacre We have phone interceptions but it does not matter at all a single episode, what it matter is the macro level, witch means NATO expansion, NATO creation of nazi forces not even just in Ukraine but in all western EU, and not today but in few decades (did you remember op. Stay Behind, Aldo Moro killing etc? To cite some historical and well documented ones). We can't know the truth about a specific episode even if someone say it. We can instead know the global truth because at macro scale nothing can be really hidden for long. > resulting in an astounding lack of understanding of the situation I suggest you to try the mirror test: how can you say that you have a clear understatement while those who think different are caught in Russian propaganda? How many reasonably official source of information you have read, looked for? I mean public institutions not generic press of any kind and any country. How much you followed in the timeline the news stream? How much you know about Ukraine, just in history terms (did you actual Ukraine was a Soviet-made country from 1954?), did you know who manage Ukrainian infrastructures especially oil&gas ones? (hint: USA, UK and Holland companies, like for Kazakhstan). Try to honestly reflect on those aspects. Than tell your conclusion. Oh, in evilness terms, did you remember the Iraq invasion based on claimed lies from some USA and UK élites about the Saddam mass destruction weapons that do not exists? Or the Afghanistan invasion based on the false claim they protect bin laden? Or the France ops in Libya when Qaddafi start to touch France-controlled CFA? Or Syria? Just to cite actual ones, but we can also came back to famous propaganda-made wars like Guatemala, the last strike of Eduard Bernays for the United Fruit co, those of Chiquita bananas between the rest.