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Frameworks are not created equal. Some are awful. Some seem awful but are actually great. Some seem great but are pants. Some are just great all round. Regardl

Frameworks are not created equal. Some are awful. Some seem awful but are actually great. Some seem great but are pants. Some are just great all round. Regardless, you say working on such frameworks "seems" bad to you... have you spent like a solid week trying to make something work in one? There is definitely an up-front investment of time, but once over the initial hump, working with a well-designed framework can actually be very liberating, enlightening and enjoyable. Things I enjoyed in the past include numpy, flask, Django and sklearn (the latter in particular, no offence to any maintainers, seems like a mess but is actually very well designed and thought-through IMO). Things I don't enjoy are Ansible and Pandas, though both look like they're polished and well thought-through. YMMV.

karamanolev 5y ago
I think "trying to use a framework" is approaching it from the wrong end. I find it more enlightening to try to achieve something larger without a framework, seeing what pain points you have and then adopting whatever you need to solve your problems. In some cases, "trying" might be actually succeeding, but finding out that the same could be done with 1/100 of the time/effort. In other cases, you just find out what you want to do is just not feasible as a single developer and leveraging others' work is a must. That approach also makes it much easier to evaluate if the framework is good and is good for you and your project. Otherwise you're trying to figure out if a hammer is good without having any nails to drive.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  It's true, not using a framework can be very enlightening, it shows the breadth of what you have to implement yourself. It can also sometimes work the other way, and show that the framework is not actually that useful. I had this with Ansible, where going down to raw fabric made my life much, much nicer (yaml is not a great programming language...).

karamanolev 5y ago

I think "trying to use a framework" is approaching it from the wrong end. I find it more enlightening to try to achieve something larger without a framework, seeing what pain points you have and then adopting whatever you need to solve your problems. In some cases, "trying" might be actually succeeding, but finding out that the same could be done with 1/100 of the time/effort. In other cases, you just find out what you want to do is just not feasible as a single developer and leveraging others' work is a must. That approach also makes it much easier to evaluate if the framework is good and is good for you and your project. Otherwise you're trying to figure out if a hammer is good without having any nails to drive.

rich_sasha 5y ago
It's true, not using a framework can be very enlightening, it shows the breadth of what you have to implement yourself. It can also sometimes work the other way, and show that the framework is not actually that useful. I had this with Ansible, where going down to raw fabric made my life much, much nicer (yaml is not a great programming language...).