7 ms·

I'm curious about this peer group in which failure to have a cellphone results in "complete and utter exclusion". My nieces and nephews are in this age range (1

by jaspax 4y ago

I'm curious about this peer group in which failure to have a cellphone results in "complete and utter exclusion". My nieces and nephews are in this age range (10-13 yrs), and none of them have cell phones, and none of them suffer total exclusion from their peer groups. As far as I can tell, they're all socially active and popular. Apparently it's different where you live, but I would take that as a bad sign on several levels.

lelanthran 4y ago
> I'm curious about this peer group in which failure to have a cellphone results in "complete and utter exclusion". Well the article in question has the kids blocked from google search. Such a radical block will almost certainly block everything else that their friends are using. So, sure, they may not need their own phone, but at ages 10-13, blocking the child from all popular tech makes them more or less unable to join conversations with their peers who are not blocked.
- lrvick 4y ago
  When all my peers were using AIM, and Yahoo instant messenger on Windows, I was on Linux communicating via online forums and IRC learning from mostly adults willing to mentor me as an anonymous username on the internet. I was homeschooled and moved every 3-6 months growing up and in spite of all these "handicaps" I still learned to make several IRL friends within a week or two of every new city I ended up in. I would say hi, show them a magic trick, do some comedy bits I had been working on, or share the latest anime I was into. Whatever. Making friends is the skill to build in a kid, not technology conformity. Stop worrying about making kids popular and making them conform in ways beyond basic manners and respect. The roads less traveled are more likely to kelp a kid develop atypical skillsets which will give them an advantage in the job market later.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > When all my peers were using AIM, and Yahoo instant messenger on Windows, I was on Linux communicating via online forums and IRC learning from mostly adults willing to mentor me as an anonymous username on the internet. Right, and that was before all the kids were on facebook, or twitter, or whatever. You're talking about a time when the only online-networking being done, was being done on a desktop computer. IME, less than 1 out of every 100 children in 2000 were actually using desktop computer. We are now in a time were 95/100 children are using some sort of portable personal computer that is with them all the time. > I was homeschooled and moved every 3-6 months growing up and in spite of all these "handicaps" I still learned to make several IRL friends within a week or two of every new city I ended up in. Which was perfectly possible when almost none of the kids were on computers. Now they all are. > Stop worrying about making kids popular and making them conform in ways beyond basic manners and respect. The roads less traveled are more likely to kelp a kid develop atypical skillsets which will give them an advantage in the job market later. I'm afraid you're not a good example: you appear to lack some important skills wrt to the world as it is. Think about it this way - there are people who didn't bother putting up with the hardship of a reduced social network, and they ended up more successful than you. I don't think you have any interaction with children. I do.
    - lrvick 4y ago
      I used to help run after school programs, and mentor quite a few Gen Z people in software engineering, sysadmin, etc. Also, I used to be a kid. Not every kid needs to conform to social norms. To your point, plenty of kids will be successful with and without smartphones, but I would argue those that don't will likely be less prone to endless hours of doom scrolling on apps literally designed with casino-like dopamine drip algorithms to keep them addicted. I choose to believe someone is not a shitty parent for trying to delay a child from having constant in-pocket access to addictive and harmful things.
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      > less than 1 out of every 100 children in 2000 were actually using desktop computer Depends if you're talking about pre-teens or teenagers. ICQ alone had 100 million accounts in 2001. And I would expect teenagers to be amongst the first to use it.
  - watwut 4y ago
    > Stop worrying about making kids popular and making them conform in ways beyond basic manners and respect. They dont worry about them being "popular". They worry about them being excluded. > I would say hi, show them a magic trick, do some comedy bits I had been working on, or share the latest anime I was into. Whatever. Making friends is the skill to build in a kid, not technology conformity. How do you show latest anime without device? Where did you met kids willing to go to your house first time they met you?
    - lrvick 4y ago
      Why do you assume lack of android/ios devices means lack of computers. I would 100% help a kid build a desktop computer and maybe give them a linux tablet. App culture, which revolves around the major smartphone platforms, is where the addictive data harvesting apps come from, many of which refuse to run on anything but ios/android specifically because they are far more limited in data harvesting in a web browser where one can install privacy plugins. A kid can use Freetube on a laptop or tablet for instance with no need for a Google account, and without targeting or ads.
2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
Even teachers use Whatsapp to communicate with pupils nowadays. Here in Finland, from 13 and up, it's pretty much total social exclusion and severely reduced ability to participate in school work if you don't have a smartphone. Teenagers without phones is pretty much uneard of, apart from in some religious circles. The thing about those teenagers is that they rarely meet outside school. Covid made damn sure parents are somewhat paranoid about social contacts, and having people over is still pretty rare. The result is teenagers communicating pretty much all the time, but it's all done over social media.
- lrvick 4y ago
  If a teacher could not figure out how to communicate with a kid without routing those communications through Facebook servers, I would kindly teach them how e-mail, matrix, or other neutral internet protocols work. Honestly -most- of the time I tell people I don't have a phone they say something like "That is super cool, I wish I could do that. My phone has ruined my life. How would you prefer we keep in touch since you can't use X app?"
  - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
    It's not about figuring out how to do it in other ways that doesn't include Facebook servers. It's just that all the pupils are already on those platforms, as are the teachers, and asking everyone to switch to other platforms is simply inconvenient. Most people simply don't care enough, and that includes most teenagers. People want convenience, and as little interference as possible. I'm not saying it's a good thing; on the contrary I suspect it will be outright disruptive for society in a generation's time or so. Still, people _like_ their dopamine fixes. Most enjoy being hooked to TikTok, and having a real-life attention-span beaten by goldfish. We, as a society, missed that the hopelessly incompetent and oblivios people in Wall-E was a warning and not a manual.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Still, it is not an either/or situation. If teachers want to use WhatsApp for their personal communications, fine by me. What parents are perfectly entitled to do is to go to the school board and say "*We don't want to use WhatsApp. There needs to be a proper messaging platform for school communication"

by jaspax 4y ago

lelanthran 4y ago

> I'm curious about this peer group in which failure to have a cellphone results in "complete and utter exclusion". Well the article in question has the kids blocked from google search. Such a radical block will almost certainly block everything else that their friends are using. So, sure, they may not need their own phone, but at ages 10-13, blocking the child from all popular tech makes them more or less unable to join conversations with their peers who are not blocked.

lrvick 4y ago
When all my peers were using AIM, and Yahoo instant messenger on Windows, I was on Linux communicating via online forums and IRC learning from mostly adults willing to mentor me as an anonymous username on the internet. I was homeschooled and moved every 3-6 months growing up and in spite of all these "handicaps" I still learned to make several IRL friends within a week or two of every new city I ended up in. I would say hi, show them a magic trick, do some comedy bits I had been working on, or share the latest anime I was into. Whatever. Making friends is the skill to build in a kid, not technology conformity. Stop worrying about making kids popular and making them conform in ways beyond basic manners and respect. The roads less traveled are more likely to kelp a kid develop atypical skillsets which will give them an advantage in the job market later.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > When all my peers were using AIM, and Yahoo instant messenger on Windows, I was on Linux communicating via online forums and IRC learning from mostly adults willing to mentor me as an anonymous username on the internet. Right, and that was before all the kids were on facebook, or twitter, or whatever. You're talking about a time when the only online-networking being done, was being done on a desktop computer. IME, less than 1 out of every 100 children in 2000 were actually using desktop computer. We are now in a time were 95/100 children are using some sort of portable personal computer that is with them all the time. > I was homeschooled and moved every 3-6 months growing up and in spite of all these "handicaps" I still learned to make several IRL friends within a week or two of every new city I ended up in. Which was perfectly possible when almost none of the kids were on computers. Now they all are. > Stop worrying about making kids popular and making them conform in ways beyond basic manners and respect. The roads less traveled are more likely to kelp a kid develop atypical skillsets which will give them an advantage in the job market later. I'm afraid you're not a good example: you appear to lack some important skills wrt to the world as it is. Think about it this way - there are people who didn't bother putting up with the hardship of a reduced social network, and they ended up more successful than you. I don't think you have any interaction with children. I do.
  - lrvick 4y ago
    I used to help run after school programs, and mentor quite a few Gen Z people in software engineering, sysadmin, etc. Also, I used to be a kid. Not every kid needs to conform to social norms. To your point, plenty of kids will be successful with and without smartphones, but I would argue those that don't will likely be less prone to endless hours of doom scrolling on apps literally designed with casino-like dopamine drip algorithms to keep them addicted. I choose to believe someone is not a shitty parent for trying to delay a child from having constant in-pocket access to addictive and harmful things.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    > less than 1 out of every 100 children in 2000 were actually using desktop computer Depends if you're talking about pre-teens or teenagers. ICQ alone had 100 million accounts in 2001. And I would expect teenagers to be amongst the first to use it.
- watwut 4y ago
  > Stop worrying about making kids popular and making them conform in ways beyond basic manners and respect. They dont worry about them being "popular". They worry about them being excluded. > I would say hi, show them a magic trick, do some comedy bits I had been working on, or share the latest anime I was into. Whatever. Making friends is the skill to build in a kid, not technology conformity. How do you show latest anime without device? Where did you met kids willing to go to your house first time they met you?
  - lrvick 4y ago
    Why do you assume lack of android/ios devices means lack of computers. I would 100% help a kid build a desktop computer and maybe give them a linux tablet. App culture, which revolves around the major smartphone platforms, is where the addictive data harvesting apps come from, many of which refuse to run on anything but ios/android specifically because they are far more limited in data harvesting in a web browser where one can install privacy plugins. A kid can use Freetube on a laptop or tablet for instance with no need for a Google account, and without targeting or ads.

2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago

Even teachers use Whatsapp to communicate with pupils nowadays. Here in Finland, from 13 and up, it's pretty much total social exclusion and severely reduced ability to participate in school work if you don't have a smartphone. Teenagers without phones is pretty much uneard of, apart from in some religious circles. The thing about those teenagers is that they rarely meet outside school. Covid made damn sure parents are somewhat paranoid about social contacts, and having people over is still pretty rare. The result is teenagers communicating pretty much all the time, but it's all done over social media.

lrvick 4y ago
If a teacher could not figure out how to communicate with a kid without routing those communications through Facebook servers, I would kindly teach them how e-mail, matrix, or other neutral internet protocols work. Honestly -most- of the time I tell people I don't have a phone they say something like "That is super cool, I wish I could do that. My phone has ruined my life. How would you prefer we keep in touch since you can't use X app?"
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  It's not about figuring out how to do it in other ways that doesn't include Facebook servers. It's just that all the pupils are already on those platforms, as are the teachers, and asking everyone to switch to other platforms is simply inconvenient. Most people simply don't care enough, and that includes most teenagers. People want convenience, and as little interference as possible. I'm not saying it's a good thing; on the contrary I suspect it will be outright disruptive for society in a generation's time or so. Still, people _like_ their dopamine fixes. Most enjoy being hooked to TikTok, and having a real-life attention-span beaten by goldfish. We, as a society, missed that the hopelessly incompetent and oblivios people in Wall-E was a warning and not a manual.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Still, it is not an either/or situation. If teachers want to use WhatsApp for their personal communications, fine by me. What parents are perfectly entitled to do is to go to the school board and say "*We don't want to use WhatsApp. There needs to be a proper messaging platform for school communication"