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I didn't pick up on any "misanthropic" undertones in his essay but I echo your sentiment regarding the labels not for the same moralistic reasons you cited but

I didn't pick up on any "misanthropic" undertones in his essay but I echo your sentiment regarding the labels not for the same moralistic reasons you cited but for their weak construction; I'd have opted for "collectivist vs individualist" instead of "conventional vs independent" and "militant vs casual" instead of "aggressive vs passive" but the premise of his thesis remains intact which is that we need to counter the pervasive influence of these elements not to ruin the public discourse for all of us.

keithwhor 5y ago
Aha. Great observation; what you interpret as anti-collectivist / pro-individualist I interpret as misanthropic. Admittedly this is probably cultural on my part; growing up in a working class Canadian family bestows different social ideologies. It’s a complaint I have about Canadian culture (not individualistic enough) but I do think a problem with American discourse is it can err so far on the side of individualism as to become misanthropic: the extreme being the sentiment, “I, and people like me, are the only group that matters.” That’s not what Paul is saying here at all. I just think discourse about “social heresy” might be more productively framed as — what do we all agree on, how can we focus on channeling that energy productively, and how can we accommodate the people who disagree? Generally speaking capitalism can be a force for good here if you pick big, juicy problems everyone is excited to solve. Climate, energy, etc. And I think Paul is funding some of those companies!
- FerociousTimes 5y ago
  I know it's futile to persuade a Canadian not to apologize reflexively anytime they get the chance to but your pro-collectivist explanation is totally fine with me :) Here's my counter backstory, I grew up and live in a very collectivist society and I'm a very individualist minded person by nature, and it's like hell on earth for me, and to spare you the sob story and to get straight to the point, when I come across pieces like the ones authored by PG in defense of individualism and critical of collectivism, it always hits home and I experience a momentary feeling of relief knowing I am not alone in all of this, and when I see how the militant collectivist crowd is wreaking havoc in the West and making people's life a living hell, it really upsets me and I feel helpless reminding me of my own personal circumstances, and that's why I have strong reactions regarding this issue, and why I feel that something must be done to counter this destructive force and stop it in its tracks. PS: I don't view every collectivist movement negatively, that would be extremely absurd and I believe that some currents of collectivism can be very beneficial for society and the entire world but I'm still a staunch defender of individualism and will ever be.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I think you're both a little wrong. The ideology isn't collectivist, it's pseudo-collectivist. For example, as a foreigner who finds ethnic "identity politics" rather natural, I'm completely befuddled by what passes for "identity politics" in America. It's not collectivism where everyone all the Muslim kids line up in their tribe and follow what the patriarchs and matriarchs say. It's a hyper-individualistic cosplay of collectivism. "Proud Muslim Americans" wear their identity on their sleeve and complain about "white people" and "Islamophobia," but their beliefs and causes align with those of their white progressive friends, not other Muslims. This, incidentally, makes the movement seem much bigger than it is.

keithwhor 5y ago

Aha. Great observation; what you interpret as anti-collectivist / pro-individualist I interpret as misanthropic. Admittedly this is probably cultural on my part; growing up in a working class Canadian family bestows different social ideologies. It’s a complaint I have about Canadian culture (not individualistic enough) but I do think a problem with American discourse is it can err so far on the side of individualism as to become misanthropic: the extreme being the sentiment, “I, and people like me, are the only group that matters.” That’s not what Paul is saying here at all. I just think discourse about “social heresy” might be more productively framed as — what do we all agree on, how can we focus on channeling that energy productively, and how can we accommodate the people who disagree? Generally speaking capitalism can be a force for good here if you pick big, juicy problems everyone is excited to solve. Climate, energy, etc. And I think Paul is funding some of those companies!

FerociousTimes 5y ago
I know it's futile to persuade a Canadian not to apologize reflexively anytime they get the chance to but your pro-collectivist explanation is totally fine with me :) Here's my counter backstory, I grew up and live in a very collectivist society and I'm a very individualist minded person by nature, and it's like hell on earth for me, and to spare you the sob story and to get straight to the point, when I come across pieces like the ones authored by PG in defense of individualism and critical of collectivism, it always hits home and I experience a momentary feeling of relief knowing I am not alone in all of this, and when I see how the militant collectivist crowd is wreaking havoc in the West and making people's life a living hell, it really upsets me and I feel helpless reminding me of my own personal circumstances, and that's why I have strong reactions regarding this issue, and why I feel that something must be done to counter this destructive force and stop it in its tracks. PS: I don't view every collectivist movement negatively, that would be extremely absurd and I believe that some currents of collectivism can be very beneficial for society and the entire world but I'm still a staunch defender of individualism and will ever be.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I think you're both a little wrong. The ideology isn't collectivist, it's pseudo-collectivist. For example, as a foreigner who finds ethnic "identity politics" rather natural, I'm completely befuddled by what passes for "identity politics" in America. It's not collectivism where everyone all the Muslim kids line up in their tribe and follow what the patriarchs and matriarchs say. It's a hyper-individualistic cosplay of collectivism. "Proud Muslim Americans" wear their identity on their sleeve and complain about "white people" and "Islamophobia," but their beliefs and causes align with those of their white progressive friends, not other Muslims. This, incidentally, makes the movement seem much bigger than it is.