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Figurative, not literal poison. Unless you mean poison as in a substance that can cause serious harm under certain conditions. But then avoiding all such 'poiso

by trmonx 4y ago

Figurative, not literal poison. Unless you mean poison as in a substance that can cause serious harm under certain conditions. But then avoiding all such 'poisons' would probably not be that healthy.

rco8786 4y ago
Pretty literal IMO. Alcohol poisoning kills thousands of people every year.
- SigmundA 4y ago
  Then in that case water is literal poison as is just about everything else if too much is consumed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication Alcohol is more poisonous than water but less poisonous than arsenic, the main unresolved question is how much alcohol is "safe", arsenic is regulated to certain amounts in food and drinking water to be considered a "safe" amount.
  - cute_boi 4y ago
    I think this is a common fallacy. We need water to survive. If there is safer way to survive without drinking water, please let us know. However, I am certain that anyone can survive without alcohol.
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      We can survive without the being in the sun and the sun gives us cancer, do you want to live without the sun? Not everything we do should be judged on that basis, many things we do for enjoyment that are not required for living have risks associated with them alcohol included. I just want good information on how risky alcohol is to make an informed decision.
      - cute_boi 4y ago
        Yes, if there wouldn't be any issue with Vitamin D I would prefer to live without sun. There is reason why I use sunscreen. People take drugs for enjoyment too. There are reasons why many drugs are banned. There are few drugs that are less lethal than alcohol. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cocaine-ecstacy-drug-classification-alcohol-tobacco-damage-illegal-ban-a8976166.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cocaine-ecst... The problem I find with alcohol is not some occasional drinkers, but the one who ruins everything for the sake of pleasure. In my country, these people cause a large damage. They speak nonsense in streets, harms pedestrian by reckless driving, waste money on women etc.. I have never seen such behavior when someone drank water. Many things looks okay in ideal state or in philosophy, but in real life people have to face the naunces. Hence, I think comparing Alcohol with Water in terms of harmful effect is vacuous.
  - tsol 4y ago
    But water isn't toxic to cells of the body, like alcohol is. It's just that killing or causing DNA damage to individual cells doesn't necessarily create an immediate noticeable effect, so it seems like there's little going on once the hangover clears. The doesn't mean it's doing nothing
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      >At the onset of this condition, fluid outside the cells has an excessively low amount of solutes, such as sodium and other electrolytes, in comparison to fluid inside the cells, causing the fluid to move into the cells to balance its osmotic concentration. This causes the cells to swell. Water is absolutely toxic to cells and will absolutely kill you with enough dosage as will just about anything. Caffeine is 3 times more potent than arsenic and 30 times more potent than alcohol.
  - rco8786 4y ago
    In the same way that cancer is harmless because "we're all slowly dying", sure. There are so few deaths attributed to water intoxication that each one has its own line in the wikipedia article. Surely you can agree that there is a major difference here. If alcohol were discovered today it would absolutely be a schedule 3, highly controlled substance.
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      Salt is over twice as potent as alcohol, should salt be schedule 3? Salt is required for our body, yet is a deadly poison as well. Yes there is a big difference between water and alcohol and a big difference between alcohol and arsenic. Black and white thinking gets us nowhere, this is literal poison, that is not, no its a continuum of toxicity. You can ingest more alcohol than arsenic safely and you can ingest more water than that, they are each about an order of magnitude away from each other on the L50 scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose
      - rco8786 4y ago
        Salt is also required for us to survive. Arsenic is a highly controlled substance. You're really choosing poor arguments. I am aware that it's a continuum, I am the one acknowledging that. Your argument of "yea well water can kill you too" is ignoring that and is entirely reductive and provides no real value to this conversation. It also ignores that we consume water directly, and only consume alcohol in very diluted forms...because our body literally hates it we have to disguise it going in or else we involuntarily vomit immediately. But sure, comparable... On the continuum of toxicity - alcohol is reasonably deadly and is very much a literal poison (as evidenced by the thousands of people who die from acute alcohol poisoning every year, not to even mention the thousands more who die as a result of long term usage) and provides no sustenance. As soon as you ingest it your body works to expel it from your body as quickly as it can. The damage it does to human cells is well documented. It is completely unnecessary to human life and even claims of some potential minor health benefits are easily crushed by the health benefits of say, eating an apple every day. And yes, there's certainly a deadly dosage of apples too.

by trmonx 4y ago

Figurative, not literal poison. Unless you mean poison as in a substance that can cause serious harm under certain conditions. But then avoiding all such 'poisons' would probably not be that healthy.

rco8786 4y ago

Pretty literal IMO. Alcohol poisoning kills thousands of people every year.

SigmundA 4y ago
Then in that case water is literal poison as is just about everything else if too much is consumed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication Alcohol is more poisonous than water but less poisonous than arsenic, the main unresolved question is how much alcohol is "safe", arsenic is regulated to certain amounts in food and drinking water to be considered a "safe" amount.
- cute_boi 4y ago
  I think this is a common fallacy. We need water to survive. If there is safer way to survive without drinking water, please let us know. However, I am certain that anyone can survive without alcohol.
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    We can survive without the being in the sun and the sun gives us cancer, do you want to live without the sun? Not everything we do should be judged on that basis, many things we do for enjoyment that are not required for living have risks associated with them alcohol included. I just want good information on how risky alcohol is to make an informed decision.
    - cute_boi 4y ago
      Yes, if there wouldn't be any issue with Vitamin D I would prefer to live without sun. There is reason why I use sunscreen. People take drugs for enjoyment too. There are reasons why many drugs are banned. There are few drugs that are less lethal than alcohol. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cocaine-ecstacy-drug-classification-alcohol-tobacco-damage-illegal-ban-a8976166.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cocaine-ecst... The problem I find with alcohol is not some occasional drinkers, but the one who ruins everything for the sake of pleasure. In my country, these people cause a large damage. They speak nonsense in streets, harms pedestrian by reckless driving, waste money on women etc.. I have never seen such behavior when someone drank water. Many things looks okay in ideal state or in philosophy, but in real life people have to face the naunces. Hence, I think comparing Alcohol with Water in terms of harmful effect is vacuous.
- tsol 4y ago
  But water isn't toxic to cells of the body, like alcohol is. It's just that killing or causing DNA damage to individual cells doesn't necessarily create an immediate noticeable effect, so it seems like there's little going on once the hangover clears. The doesn't mean it's doing nothing
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    >At the onset of this condition, fluid outside the cells has an excessively low amount of solutes, such as sodium and other electrolytes, in comparison to fluid inside the cells, causing the fluid to move into the cells to balance its osmotic concentration. This causes the cells to swell. Water is absolutely toxic to cells and will absolutely kill you with enough dosage as will just about anything. Caffeine is 3 times more potent than arsenic and 30 times more potent than alcohol.
- rco8786 4y ago
  In the same way that cancer is harmless because "we're all slowly dying", sure. There are so few deaths attributed to water intoxication that each one has its own line in the wikipedia article. Surely you can agree that there is a major difference here. If alcohol were discovered today it would absolutely be a schedule 3, highly controlled substance.
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    Salt is over twice as potent as alcohol, should salt be schedule 3? Salt is required for our body, yet is a deadly poison as well. Yes there is a big difference between water and alcohol and a big difference between alcohol and arsenic. Black and white thinking gets us nowhere, this is literal poison, that is not, no its a continuum of toxicity. You can ingest more alcohol than arsenic safely and you can ingest more water than that, they are each about an order of magnitude away from each other on the L50 scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose
    - rco8786 4y ago
      Salt is also required for us to survive. Arsenic is a highly controlled substance. You're really choosing poor arguments. I am aware that it's a continuum, I am the one acknowledging that. Your argument of "yea well water can kill you too" is ignoring that and is entirely reductive and provides no real value to this conversation. It also ignores that we consume water directly, and only consume alcohol in very diluted forms...because our body literally hates it we have to disguise it going in or else we involuntarily vomit immediately. But sure, comparable... On the continuum of toxicity - alcohol is reasonably deadly and is very much a literal poison (as evidenced by the thousands of people who die from acute alcohol poisoning every year, not to even mention the thousands more who die as a result of long term usage) and provides no sustenance. As soon as you ingest it your body works to expel it from your body as quickly as it can. The damage it does to human cells is well documented. It is completely unnecessary to human life and even claims of some potential minor health benefits are easily crushed by the health benefits of say, eating an apple every day. And yes, there's certainly a deadly dosage of apples too.