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These are creatures that can travel between stars, potentially better galaxies, and back again for research, which implies at the very least FTL travel (and mor

by MrJohz 5y ago

These are creatures that can travel between stars, potentially better galaxies, and back again for research, which implies at the very least FTL travel (and moreover, FTL travel that leaves no emissions or traces that we can detect), yet they let themselves get seen by random Joes who happen to get their cameras out? And they turn some nukes off, but leave the rest?

pmarreck 5y ago
> FTL travel yeah, alcubierre drive at least theoretically possible, if no known way of implementing it yet exists... and it would also leave no emissions or traces, since it would work by literally bending spacetime and not via propulsion of any sort. Emissions depend on ejecting mass behind you, and all that, which probably looks pretty retro if you can just make the ground you're on go downhill (in the spacetime sense) in order to accelerate your craft > yet they let themselves get seen by random Joes maybe visual stealth is either tough, or they actually want to desensitize us to themselves? the best known treatment of desensitization in phobias is through neutral repeated exposure. > and they turn some off but leave the rest given that there's likely many more of us than there are them, and also that they probably don't really want the job of being Sky Nannies, but also that they want to neutralize the most egregiously dangerous situations (a whole bunch of missiles on standby might satisfy that) or at least try to teach a lesson ("stop that!" lol)... I'm already wildly speculating but if they're fallible intelligences that do not have omnipotence but meet our criteria for "good actors", then this is an entirely plausible scenario
- MrJohz 5y ago
  Bending space-time definitely leaves traces! That's what we call gravity. The problem with all this stuff is that you can come to with explanations for everything, but at a certain point the explanations require so many further explanations that the whole situation becomes absurd. For example, sure, maybe they're trying to desensitise us to their existence, except alien sightings come in all sorts of different shapes and formats. Okay, well maybe it's not just one group of aliens, maybe there's multiple different groups, except now we've got to imagine some sort of alien council acting together in this plan with little-to-no disagreement. Each little step down this path is somewhat plausible, but if you step back and view the claim as a whole (their is an intergalactic council of aliens with incredible travel and cloaking abilities (outside of visible wavelengths), doing undercover excitements on humans, possibly with the knowledge of our governments, in order to desensitise us to their existence), it becomes absurd. This sort of thing is the problem for which Occam's Razor was invented: given a problem with two solutions, one of which requires fewer assumptions than the other, take the solution with the fewest assumptions. So: do we accept the various mundane explanations for these events, or do we imagine some incredibly specific untestable scenario involving aliens that come to earth with nonsensical motives behaving in ways that even we as humans would describe as illogical? As an aside, this idea that we need to be desensitised to aliens seems kind of weird to me. Humans are really good at dealing with weird events. We're living through a climate catastrophe, a pandemic on a scale unknown to previous generations living in less connected worlds, we live our lives perpetually attached to a world knowledge centre, and all of this in the last few decades. I mean, aliens would definitely be something else entirely, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't very quickly become just another part of our lives.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    I agree with you. I just like wildly speculating in a way that at least maintains internal consistency so that the "path" laid seems plausible. Mostly for fun. ;) But I get it, the more twists and turns you add to this path that don't have empirical support, the more "out there" you get. Shrug. > Humans are really good at dealing with weird events. We're living through a climate catastrophe, a pandemic on a scale unknown to previous generations living in less connected worlds last I checked, we are NOT dealing well with these things: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-..., and the psychological impact: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/the-implications-of-covid-19-for-mental-health-and-substance-use/ https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/the-imp... > I can't imagine that it wouldn't very quickly become just another part of our lives There are so many people driven by fear and paranoia right now (see: many conservatives, if you'll permit the stereotype for a minute, but there IS some science to back that up at least) that the paranoia itself would be dangerous. It's like how the Khwarazmian Empire got completely wiped out because they were deeply suspicious (without basis in fact) of Genghis Khan's multiple trade envoys, who they simply assumed were spies, and who they managed to send back missing most of their heads (gravely upsetting the Genghis, and the rest is history). All it would take is for a few rogue states to send nukes up at some "monitoring" mother ships (just look at Russia with its pre-emptive "NATO-fearing" war) and that might be the end of that...

by MrJohz 5y ago

pmarreck 5y ago

> FTL travel yeah, alcubierre drive at least theoretically possible, if no known way of implementing it yet exists... and it would also leave no emissions or traces, since it would work by literally bending spacetime and not via propulsion of any sort. Emissions depend on ejecting mass behind you, and all that, which probably looks pretty retro if you can just make the ground you're on go downhill (in the spacetime sense) in order to accelerate your craft > yet they let themselves get seen by random Joes maybe visual stealth is either tough, or they actually want to desensitize us to themselves? the best known treatment of desensitization in phobias is through neutral repeated exposure. > and they turn some off but leave the rest given that there's likely many more of us than there are them, and also that they probably don't really want the job of being Sky Nannies, but also that they want to neutralize the most egregiously dangerous situations (a whole bunch of missiles on standby might satisfy that) or at least try to teach a lesson ("stop that!" lol)... I'm already wildly speculating but if they're fallible intelligences that do not have omnipotence but meet our criteria for "good actors", then this is an entirely plausible scenario

MrJohz 5y ago
Bending space-time definitely leaves traces! That's what we call gravity. The problem with all this stuff is that you can come to with explanations for everything, but at a certain point the explanations require so many further explanations that the whole situation becomes absurd. For example, sure, maybe they're trying to desensitise us to their existence, except alien sightings come in all sorts of different shapes and formats. Okay, well maybe it's not just one group of aliens, maybe there's multiple different groups, except now we've got to imagine some sort of alien council acting together in this plan with little-to-no disagreement. Each little step down this path is somewhat plausible, but if you step back and view the claim as a whole (their is an intergalactic council of aliens with incredible travel and cloaking abilities (outside of visible wavelengths), doing undercover excitements on humans, possibly with the knowledge of our governments, in order to desensitise us to their existence), it becomes absurd. This sort of thing is the problem for which Occam's Razor was invented: given a problem with two solutions, one of which requires fewer assumptions than the other, take the solution with the fewest assumptions. So: do we accept the various mundane explanations for these events, or do we imagine some incredibly specific untestable scenario involving aliens that come to earth with nonsensical motives behaving in ways that even we as humans would describe as illogical? As an aside, this idea that we need to be desensitised to aliens seems kind of weird to me. Humans are really good at dealing with weird events. We're living through a climate catastrophe, a pandemic on a scale unknown to previous generations living in less connected worlds, we live our lives perpetually attached to a world knowledge centre, and all of this in the last few decades. I mean, aliens would definitely be something else entirely, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't very quickly become just another part of our lives.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  I agree with you. I just like wildly speculating in a way that at least maintains internal consistency so that the "path" laid seems plausible. Mostly for fun. ;) But I get it, the more twists and turns you add to this path that don't have empirical support, the more "out there" you get. Shrug. > Humans are really good at dealing with weird events. We're living through a climate catastrophe, a pandemic on a scale unknown to previous generations living in less connected worlds last I checked, we are NOT dealing well with these things: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-..., and the psychological impact: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/the-implications-of-covid-19-for-mental-health-and-substance-use/ https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/the-imp... > I can't imagine that it wouldn't very quickly become just another part of our lives There are so many people driven by fear and paranoia right now (see: many conservatives, if you'll permit the stereotype for a minute, but there IS some science to back that up at least) that the paranoia itself would be dangerous. It's like how the Khwarazmian Empire got completely wiped out because they were deeply suspicious (without basis in fact) of Genghis Khan's multiple trade envoys, who they simply assumed were spies, and who they managed to send back missing most of their heads (gravely upsetting the Genghis, and the rest is history). All it would take is for a few rogue states to send nukes up at some "monitoring" mother ships (just look at Russia with its pre-emptive "NATO-fearing" war) and that might be the end of that...