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Of course there will never be definitive evidence connecting sea level rise to universal flood mythology. It comes down, in the end, to plausibility: people ev

by ncmncm 5y ago

Of course there will never be definitive evidence connecting sea level rise to universal flood mythology. It comes down, in the end, to plausibility: people everywhere have always been subject to existential catastrophe, including flood, conflagration, desertification, famine, pandemic, invasion, eviction, genocide, cyclone, earthquake, tsunami, volcanic eruption, bolide strike -- need I go on? Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. There are other ways to interpret universality. One is that a progenitor people carried an origin story with them, over tens of millennia, as they spread out to cover the planet. The universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters (one now lost) can be explained no other way. The simpler explanation for prominence of flood myths over all others regardless of proximity to recent flooding events is universal experience, in place, continued over millennia. The end of generation-on-generation flooding that immediately preceded the rise of sedentary agriculture and civilization must have been as profoundly affecting as the flood's previous relentless progress. There must have been, after 12 millennia, a deeply ingrained expectation that the sea would continue rising indefinitely, the world perhaps ending with the sea finally submerging all land. Building with an expectation not to be soon evicted by water must have seemed audaciously sacrilegious, in many places, for many generations after. Association of high ground with the gods' favor must have been cemented early. Peoples accustomed to higher ground would have, instead, continual experience of invasion by people displaced, again finally trailing off. So, is the null hypothesis that universal flood myths are local memories, with those citing universal older experience having something to prove? Or should the older origin be the baseline, with citations of scattered recent events seeding disconnected, coincidentally matching myths obliged to find support? The choice is fatuous. Each may be true, in different places. A recent flood event can easily loom larger in memory than legend. Absent a recent flood or tsunami, the universal experience remains.

eesmith 5y ago
> Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. Most peoples in Africa don't have a flood myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa . Nor is there a Japanese myth. And the Norse flood myth may be from Christian influence. Any theory of a progenitor people must explain why some it persisted in some cultures but not others. > The universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters (one now lost) can be explained no other way. ??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matariki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matariki - Matariki is the Māori name for the cluster of stars known to Western astronomers as the Pleiades in the constellation Taurus. Matariki is a shortened version of Ngā mata o te ariki o Tāwhirimātea, or "the eyes of the god Tāwhirimātea". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81 - "The star cluster Kṛttikā ... corresponds to the open star cluster called Pleiades in western astronomy ... In Indian astronomy and Jyotiṣa (Hindu astrology) the name literally translates to "the cutters". ... The six Krittikas who raised the Hindu God Kartikeya are Śiva, Sambhūti, Prīti, Sannati, Anasūya and Kṣamā." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades - "In Japan, the cluster is mentioned under the name Mutsuraboshi ("six stars") in the 8th-century Kojiki" > The simpler explanation for prominence of flood myths over all others regardless of proximity to recent flooding events is universal experience, in place, continued over millennia. There are gods in a lot of mythologies too. > There must have been, after 12 millennia, a deeply ingrained expectation that the sea would continue rising indefinitely Yet most of those flood stories have the waters rise then fall, and for a short period -- or before humans ever existed. And in the Great Flood of Gun-Yu, humans end up controlling the flood - a far cry from a universal mythos of ever-rising waters. > is the null hypothesis that universal flood myths are local memories The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth The null hypothesis is that it is indeterminate whether there is a universal flood myth. Any determinant statement is a non-null hypothesis.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    We can compare different flood myths and see there's no universal similarity between them except "there was a flood." And we can see all sorts of other similarities between different cultures, like the presence of gods and supernatural forces, and not draw the conclusion that gods and supernatural forces existed. We can look at Australian Aboriginal flood myths, which have the strongest evidence for being the result of sea-level rise from 7,000 years ago, and see that your 'simpler explanation' doesn't fit the data. And I can see that your statement about the "universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters" is not correct.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      I’m not sure who you are responding to, but none of that is germane to my post about the correct use of “null hypothesis“ that it is attached to.
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Then I didn't use the term correctly. There's still no evidence for the universal progenitor culture experience, while there is counter-evidence, including from Australian oral traditions which may date to the same period.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  From the linked Wikipedia page: "African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples." So, false. And, obviously there would be local myths of the Pleiades. But the Sisters show up on all continents. That is the fact that needs accounting for. Dragonwriter is correct: neither universal nor regional flooding is the null hypothesis.
eesmith 5y ago
> The simpler explanation for prominence of flood myths over all others regardless of proximity to recent flooding events is universal experience, in place, continued over millennia The simpler explanation is that intelligent people saw sea shells on the tops of hills and mountains, and independently concluded that there used to be a great flood which covered the world. Here are examples from myths which explicitly contain that explanation, copied from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html : ] A flood once covered everything but the summit of Mount Wawom Pebato (seashells on the hills are evidence). ] Proof of their deeds may be seen in seashells embedded in high rocks ] An unusually high tide caused a global flood. Shellfish and such things in the mountains are evidence of it ] The shells and bones of many shellfish, fish, seals, and whales were also left high above sea level, where they may be found today. ] The sky fell and hit the water, causing high breakers that flooded all the land. That is why one can find shells and redwood logs on the highest ridges ] When the flood subsided, it left the lakes Titicaca and Poopo, and it left seashells on the Altiplano at elevations of 3660 m. ] The flood destroyed all animals left on earth, including the Prince of animals [some say it was a mammoth], whose bones can still be found.

by ncmncm 5y ago

eesmith 5y ago

> Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. Most peoples in Africa don't have a flood myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa . Nor is there a Japanese myth. And the Norse flood myth may be from Christian influence. Any theory of a progenitor people must explain why some it persisted in some cultures but not others. > The universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters (one now lost) can be explained no other way. ??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matariki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matariki - Matariki is the Māori name for the cluster of stars known to Western astronomers as the Pleiades in the constellation Taurus. Matariki is a shortened version of Ngā mata o te ariki o Tāwhirimātea, or "the eyes of the god Tāwhirimātea". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81 - "The star cluster Kṛttikā ... corresponds to the open star cluster called Pleiades in western astronomy ... In Indian astronomy and Jyotiṣa (Hindu astrology) the name literally translates to "the cutters". ... The six Krittikas who raised the Hindu God Kartikeya are Śiva, Sambhūti, Prīti, Sannati, Anasūya and Kṣamā." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades - "In Japan, the cluster is mentioned under the name Mutsuraboshi ("six stars") in the 8th-century Kojiki" > The simpler explanation for prominence of flood myths over all others regardless of proximity to recent flooding events is universal experience, in place, continued over millennia. There are gods in a lot of mythologies too. > There must have been, after 12 millennia, a deeply ingrained expectation that the sea would continue rising indefinitely Yet most of those flood stories have the waters rise then fall, and for a short period -- or before humans ever existed. And in the Great Flood of Gun-Yu, humans end up controlling the flood - a far cry from a universal mythos of ever-rising waters. > is the null hypothesis that universal flood myths are local memories The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth The null hypothesis is that it is indeterminate whether there is a universal flood myth. Any determinant statement is a non-null hypothesis.
- eesmith 5y ago
  We can compare different flood myths and see there's no universal similarity between them except "there was a flood." And we can see all sorts of other similarities between different cultures, like the presence of gods and supernatural forces, and not draw the conclusion that gods and supernatural forces existed. We can look at Australian Aboriginal flood myths, which have the strongest evidence for being the result of sea-level rise from 7,000 years ago, and see that your 'simpler explanation' doesn't fit the data. And I can see that your statement about the "universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters" is not correct.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    I’m not sure who you are responding to, but none of that is germane to my post about the correct use of “null hypothesis“ that it is attached to.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Then I didn't use the term correctly. There's still no evidence for the universal progenitor culture experience, while there is counter-evidence, including from Australian oral traditions which may date to the same period.
ncmncm 5y ago
From the linked Wikipedia page: "African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples." So, false. And, obviously there would be local myths of the Pleiades. But the Sisters show up on all continents. That is the fact that needs accounting for. Dragonwriter is correct: neither universal nor regional flooding is the null hypothesis.

eesmith 5y ago

> The simpler explanation for prominence of flood myths over all others regardless of proximity to recent flooding events is universal experience, in place, continued over millennia The simpler explanation is that intelligent people saw sea shells on the tops of hills and mountains, and independently concluded that there used to be a great flood which covered the world. Here are examples from myths which explicitly contain that explanation, copied from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html : ] A flood once covered everything but the summit of Mount Wawom Pebato (seashells on the hills are evidence). ] Proof of their deeds may be seen in seashells embedded in high rocks ] An unusually high tide caused a global flood. Shellfish and such things in the mountains are evidence of it ] The shells and bones of many shellfish, fish, seals, and whales were also left high above sea level, where they may be found today. ] The sky fell and hit the water, causing high breakers that flooded all the land. That is why one can find shells and redwood logs on the highest ridges ] When the flood subsided, it left the lakes Titicaca and Poopo, and it left seashells on the Altiplano at elevations of 3660 m. ] The flood destroyed all animals left on earth, including the Prince of animals [some say it was a mammoth], whose bones can still be found.