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Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally, as a Swede I'm very much willing to turn down/off the heat if that can force an end to Russian aggression, as I'm sure many others in Europe are. We can still live comfortably by for example heating one room instead of five. The important part is that industry is not affected.

radu_floricica 5y ago
I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of such policies. Just like how poor people would definitely feel the extra euro paid by supply chain issues created by a full ban of plastic, also poor people will pay the most utility cost of having more expensive heating. Euro, we pay the same, but pain will be concentrated in the lower income levels. And btw, I strongly dislike having to type this. I'm both a libertarian and a Romanian, and on both counts I shouldn't have to take this position. But those are the facts. Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed. A home is a home, you don't go back there to pitch a tent in the living room, not unless it's a literal war zone. So whatever things we prepare for, imagining 8 degree cuts is just a fantasy. We just have to find other options.
- martindbp 5y ago
  > equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements > Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed Yeah, maybe you're right and the outrage will blow over, but maybe not. I can't speak for the national sentiment of Germans or Romanians, but this feels different to me. Maybe it's given our history with Russia, but we sent anti-tank missiles this time, as a "neutral" country. We haven't provided lethal aid to a country since the Winter War, which again was Russian aggression. This is different than plastic bags.
  - radu_floricica 5y ago
    Oh, it's big. It's definitely big. For us here it's even bigger than you might think - a good part of the reason why eastern europe is still so much behind is russian influence. Getting rid of that means finally picking up the pace and realizing our potential. Not to mention Ukraine... 44 million people free and in EU. The "good ending" here could be incredibly good.
ghostwriter 5y ago
Lowering room temperatures will not help european industries that do need persistent supply of energy to sustain their production chains such as glass blowing and steel casting [1]. [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferungen-sorgen-engpass-industrie-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferun...
- yakak 5y ago
  If you don't waste energy for over heating you have it for industry. Russia doesn't even provide half of the EU's gas or oil so extreme rationing of household and transport energy would mean very little rationing elsewhere.
  - ghostwriter 5y ago
    It doesn’t have to be a half of the EU supply to cause shortages and shutdowns. And shortages at factories cause a ripple effect of supply chain disruptions in many dependent industries [1] [1] https://m-delfi-lt.translate.goog/verslas/verslas/article.php?id=89932699&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en https://m-delfi-lt.translate.goog/verslas/verslas/article.ph...
    - yakak 5y ago
      You avoid all discussion of rationing and rationality and discuss freemarket putzery where you run out of industrial energy because demand from people who are cost insensitive may taper too slowly. If the the EU can't implement rationing it should immediately impose a 100%+ tax on gas so it can start distributing that money back unevenly to prevent economic damage where gas is needed, pressure down gas usage, and prevent profits from going to Putain. 0% tax is the pathological case where all of society uses energy whether it needs it or not and government has no funds to work with and the suppliers take all profits from limiting supply.
dontlaugh 5y ago
I remember a time when my Serbian neighbours were bombed by the US. As a Romanian, I fear the US and the EU far more than Russia.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  And what of your Kosovar Albanian neighbors? US and EU were there to stop the conflict that caused 5 times more of them to be killed. No one in their right mind could make the case for involvement to be around oil or money, as opposed to humanitarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War Serbia supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine is proof enough of who the actual aggressors are.
  - helij 5y ago
    Don't spread lies. Serbia is not supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine. For proof please check how they voted in UN. They condemned the Russian agression on Ukraine and voted to suspend Russia from Human Rights Council. Your Wikipedia link is actually much more balanced and not black and white as your obvious anti-Serb sentiment.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      And then Vucic just mouthed at EU and US. UN is nothing.
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      What lie am I spreading? Ok, I'll grant that saying "Serbia" as whole supporting Russia is incorrect, I should've said "many Serbians." Yes, Serbia's recent UN vote condemning the invasion of Ukraine is appreciated, given their usual Putin-friendliness. But the state still frequently sides with Russia on issues like invading and annexing Crimea: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/12/08/serbia-backs-russia-again-in-un-vote-on-crimea/ https://balkaninsight.com/2020/12/08/serbia-backs-russia-aga... What other non-Russian country would this pro-"invasion of Ukraine" rally happen? https://twitter.com/SerbiaBased/status/1499815809065132033?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/SerbiaBased/status/1499815809065132033?r... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-serbia-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-serb... and https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-presidential-elections-moscow-elections-d20d885ffd7a86605b05ef97b3e1c4bc https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-presidential... explain more details: "Serbia, a traditional Russian ally, has rejected calls from the European Union and the United States to join in sanctions against Moscow, citing national interests. The country’s representative to the United Nations did vote in favor of a resolution condemning Moscow’s attack on Ukraine as a violation of international law. Despite the Serbian government saying it is seeking EU membership, Vucic and his allies have refrained from condemning Russia over the invasion, a possible sign they want to avoid alienating pro-Russia voters ahead of Sunday’s election. Thousands of people in Serbia have turned out for pro-Putin rallies during the five-week invasion, waving Russian flags and displaying the letter Z - a symbol seen on Russian military vehicles in Ukraine. The support for Moscow makes Serbia somewhat of an outlier in Europe."
raxxorraxor 5y ago
Electric heaters also warm indirectly when the next power bill comes. Using that anger will probably produce some heat as well. People would burn wood, plastic and tires before using this tactic.

radu_floricica 5y ago

I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of such policies. Just like how poor people would definitely feel the extra euro paid by supply chain issues created by a full ban of plastic, also poor people will pay the most utility cost of having more expensive heating. Euro, we pay the same, but pain will be concentrated in the lower income levels. And btw, I strongly dislike having to type this. I'm both a libertarian and a Romanian, and on both counts I shouldn't have to take this position. But those are the facts. Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed. A home is a home, you don't go back there to pitch a tent in the living room, not unless it's a literal war zone. So whatever things we prepare for, imagining 8 degree cuts is just a fantasy. We just have to find other options.

martindbp 5y ago
> equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements > Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed Yeah, maybe you're right and the outrage will blow over, but maybe not. I can't speak for the national sentiment of Germans or Romanians, but this feels different to me. Maybe it's given our history with Russia, but we sent anti-tank missiles this time, as a "neutral" country. We haven't provided lethal aid to a country since the Winter War, which again was Russian aggression. This is different than plastic bags.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  Oh, it's big. It's definitely big. For us here it's even bigger than you might think - a good part of the reason why eastern europe is still so much behind is russian influence. Getting rid of that means finally picking up the pace and realizing our potential. Not to mention Ukraine... 44 million people free and in EU. The "good ending" here could be incredibly good.

ghostwriter 5y ago

Lowering room temperatures will not help european industries that do need persistent supply of energy to sustain their production chains such as glass blowing and steel casting [1]. [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferungen-sorgen-engpass-industrie-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferun...

yakak 5y ago
If you don't waste energy for over heating you have it for industry. Russia doesn't even provide half of the EU's gas or oil so extreme rationing of household and transport energy would mean very little rationing elsewhere.
- ghostwriter 5y ago
  It doesn’t have to be a half of the EU supply to cause shortages and shutdowns. And shortages at factories cause a ripple effect of supply chain disruptions in many dependent industries [1] [1] https://m-delfi-lt.translate.goog/verslas/verslas/article.php?id=89932699&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en https://m-delfi-lt.translate.goog/verslas/verslas/article.ph...
  - yakak 5y ago
    You avoid all discussion of rationing and rationality and discuss freemarket putzery where you run out of industrial energy because demand from people who are cost insensitive may taper too slowly. If the the EU can't implement rationing it should immediately impose a 100%+ tax on gas so it can start distributing that money back unevenly to prevent economic damage where gas is needed, pressure down gas usage, and prevent profits from going to Putain. 0% tax is the pathological case where all of society uses energy whether it needs it or not and government has no funds to work with and the suppliers take all profits from limiting supply.

dontlaugh 5y ago

I remember a time when my Serbian neighbours were bombed by the US. As a Romanian, I fear the US and the EU far more than Russia.

reducesuffering 5y ago
And what of your Kosovar Albanian neighbors? US and EU were there to stop the conflict that caused 5 times more of them to be killed. No one in their right mind could make the case for involvement to be around oil or money, as opposed to humanitarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War Serbia supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine is proof enough of who the actual aggressors are.
- helij 5y ago
  Don't spread lies. Serbia is not supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine. For proof please check how they voted in UN. They condemned the Russian agression on Ukraine and voted to suspend Russia from Human Rights Council. Your Wikipedia link is actually much more balanced and not black and white as your obvious anti-Serb sentiment.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    And then Vucic just mouthed at EU and US. UN is nothing.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    What lie am I spreading? Ok, I'll grant that saying "Serbia" as whole supporting Russia is incorrect, I should've said "many Serbians." Yes, Serbia's recent UN vote condemning the invasion of Ukraine is appreciated, given their usual Putin-friendliness. But the state still frequently sides with Russia on issues like invading and annexing Crimea: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/12/08/serbia-backs-russia-again-in-un-vote-on-crimea/ https://balkaninsight.com/2020/12/08/serbia-backs-russia-aga... What other non-Russian country would this pro-"invasion of Ukraine" rally happen? https://twitter.com/SerbiaBased/status/1499815809065132033?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/SerbiaBased/status/1499815809065132033?r... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-serbia-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-serb... and https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-presidential-elections-moscow-elections-d20d885ffd7a86605b05ef97b3e1c4bc https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-presidential... explain more details: "Serbia, a traditional Russian ally, has rejected calls from the European Union and the United States to join in sanctions against Moscow, citing national interests. The country’s representative to the United Nations did vote in favor of a resolution condemning Moscow’s attack on Ukraine as a violation of international law. Despite the Serbian government saying it is seeking EU membership, Vucic and his allies have refrained from condemning Russia over the invasion, a possible sign they want to avoid alienating pro-Russia voters ahead of Sunday’s election. Thousands of people in Serbia have turned out for pro-Putin rallies during the five-week invasion, waving Russian flags and displaying the letter Z - a symbol seen on Russian military vehicles in Ukraine. The support for Moscow makes Serbia somewhat of an outlier in Europe."

raxxorraxor 5y ago

Electric heaters also warm indirectly when the next power bill comes. Using that anger will probably produce some heat as well. People would burn wood, plastic and tires before using this tactic.