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I am using the word "valid" about how you're using "real", I suppose. This is probably a dead end of an argument. I think you're making a value judgement about
by kemayo 5y ago
I am using the word "valid" about how you're using "real", I suppose.
This is probably a dead end of an argument. I think you're making a value judgement about what could be possible -- you're entering the question accepting as an axiom "sex and gender are the same thing and cannot differ", and so naturally the person's reported experience must be incorrect. If you instead think "sex and gender are different things", you'd reach a different conclusion.
- leephillips 5y agoI’m not accepting that as an axiom. I’m asking you (and others) to explain what gender is, in this context, non-circularly. So far, I haven’t gotten a definition.
- beaconstudios 5y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity Basically, it's a set of socially prescribed behaviours and expectations based on sex. Men wear trousers and are strong, women wear dresses and are graceful. That sort of thing. There's a few different concepts mixed up in the idea of gender, but it's effectively the social aspects associated with sex.
- leephillips 5y agoNo that defines gender role. That’s clear. That is not the gender-as-inherent-property that make it possible to say that one is born in the wrong body.
- kemayo 5y agoActually, question to reevaluate: from that answer you’re okay with the existence of gender roles as distinct things from physical sex, right? Do you have any opposition to someone presenting as a gender role that doesn’t align with their physical characteristics? To altering their physical characteristics in ways they want to pursue? If so, is your original “(1)” point entirely objecting to people saying “I feel I was born in the wrong body”? I, and I think others, were certainly reading it as “trans people aren’t a real thing”, with the implied policy implications that carries with it…
- leephillips 5y agoThe only things I’ve objected to today are circular definitions.
- kemayo 5y agoIf you’re okay with everything I asked about, does whether gender is inherent matter?
- kemayo 5y agoI stand by the non circular definition I put in this comment in a different part of this thread, if it helps: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30979465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30979465
- leephillips 5y agoYou defined gender there by using the word “gender”.
- kemayo 5y agoNo, I said “gender role” in quotes for a reason — to group it together as a concept. If you want I can rephrase it to “societal role historically associated with a particular set of physical traits”, but I thought that was apparent. The argument isn’t that sex and gender are entirely unrelated concepts. Just that they’re not inherently equivalent.
- leephillips 5y agoYou still haven’t said what gender is, in the sense of an inherent, permanent property that allows one to coherently say “I was born in the wrong body.” We all know what gender roles are.
- beaconstudios 5y agoAs I said before, "born in the wrong body" is actually not quite accurate, but it's used to approximate an explanation for people who aren't familiar with ideas like gender roles. Gender isn't a biological concept, it's a sociological one. Gender identity is whether you identify with the gender roles of male, or female, or neither. I didn't mean to imply that it being an "internal property" meant it was biological, as I've been trying to explain - it's psychosocial. Edit: I think fundamentally, if you don't object to treating trans people decently like using their preferred pronouns and name, or getting surgery, I don't think it matters too much. I'm not an expert on the definitions by any means, my primary concern is opposing justifications to mistreat trans people, so if it's just a matter of terminology I guess my only suggestion is to read into what the relevant fields of study have to say if it's something you want clarity on.