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> only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime What makes you think they have any power at all? This is not what history teaches us ab

> only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime What makes you think they have any power at all? This is not what history teaches us about totalitarian regimes.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> What makes you think they have any power at all I would say it's also not clear that they want it.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  That's how totalitarian regimes work: voicing dissent is dangerous. See other comment (not mine).
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    or that's how people of China like their country. Some of them are opposing to the regime, but it is possible that the majority of them is pleased for how things are going, also because things have improved a lot for the average Chinese folk over the past couple of decades. For many aspects China is not more totalitarian or violent than many other countries, it can in fact be considered an average country in that regards, where 1.2 billion people live. that's more than US + Europe combined (almost two times that) It is very possible that that's one of the few ways to run such a large country efficiently. Smaller countries like North Korea for example could probably benefit from a liberal democracy and could be run in such a system, but could China? And would Chinese people want it? I think it's an open question.
chrischen 5y ago
What makes you think the Chinese people don’t support their government? People will support their government if they can deliver the basic needs like economic growth and prosperity. At least on that front most people agree China has had some of that over the last 20 years. It’s safe to assume if that keeps up Chinese citizens can be pretty complacent. The needs and wants of a foreigner for the Chinese government will be vastly different from those of a citizen of China. For example we are primarily concerned with human rights, their cooperation in global politics, and other things that concern us as non citizens. But to a citizen they want jobs, food, a stable local economy. These are things China historically did not have, and which can at least be partially credited to the government for providing. By our metrics, yes they do poorly, but then our wants for the Chinese government are pretty much completely detached from that of a local citizen.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  Nothing makes me believe they don't support the government. Just like nothing makes me believe they could enact any change if they wanted, which is what the parent implied.
Barrin92 5y ago
Well basic math, there's more than a billion of them. How do you think the Communist party displaced the old regime? If the people were to march on Beijing the government would cease to exist within one day, which is of course why it actually tries really hard to keep the people happy. This is of course orthogonal to both the topic at hand and reality. The Chinese are quite content with their government and abuse of low-status criminals virtually never causes political turmoil. (not even in bleeding heart democracies) Also as a sidenote, it's not a totalitarian but an autocratic country. As William Gibson once remarked about Singapore, it's on its path to be Disneyland with the death penalty.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  I'm not familiar with the details of the Communist party, but today's China is autocratic. It's a mistake to take the democratic principle of "people can enact change" and take it to an autocratic government (and outright contradiction when using the adjective "totalitarian"). Okay, the government is also "people" in some way. But the "people" who can currently enact change are the ones who benefit from the current government, and it's silly to expect that they have a sudden synchronized change of mind. For the billions of masses, they don't stand a chance against an organized military response. We've had a taste of that in China itself in 1984, as well as in events leading up to South Korea's Gwangju Massacre. Parent's "only they can help themselves" quip is just a way of absolving any responsibility: "it's not my problem". I'm not saying whether we can do anything or not, but this kind of statements kill any rational thought towards solving the problem before it's even concieved.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    What is important to understand is that both democratic and autocratic governments depend on legitimacy. No the Chinese military or police would not stand any chance against the true popular will of the Chinese, not for a second. That is why the Chinese government has economic growth targets and social programs and so forth. If they could rule like medieval kings they would. All modern, large states are accountable to their people, regardless of whatever form of government rules. People in power can be responsive to the people or irresponsive in both autocracies and democracies. The Chinese government is extremely responsive to popular opinion, even if its unelected. In that sense it's no different than a big company, which isn't governed by its customers but accountable to them. The important question isn't, "is it my problem", it's "is it a problem". The Chinese are not children and we're not their parents. Believe it or not they have rational thought in China as well. Using our rational thought means taking seriously the notion that the Chinese do not want our political system, that they by and large if not support at least tolerate their state, and that it's not our problem to solve, because it is not a problem.

> only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime What makes you think they have any power at all? This is not what history teaches us about totalitarian regimes.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago

> What makes you think they have any power at all I would say it's also not clear that they want it.

rhn_mk1 5y ago
That's how totalitarian regimes work: voicing dissent is dangerous. See other comment (not mine).
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  or that's how people of China like their country. Some of them are opposing to the regime, but it is possible that the majority of them is pleased for how things are going, also because things have improved a lot for the average Chinese folk over the past couple of decades. For many aspects China is not more totalitarian or violent than many other countries, it can in fact be considered an average country in that regards, where 1.2 billion people live. that's more than US + Europe combined (almost two times that) It is very possible that that's one of the few ways to run such a large country efficiently. Smaller countries like North Korea for example could probably benefit from a liberal democracy and could be run in such a system, but could China? And would Chinese people want it? I think it's an open question.

chrischen 5y ago

What makes you think the Chinese people don’t support their government? People will support their government if they can deliver the basic needs like economic growth and prosperity. At least on that front most people agree China has had some of that over the last 20 years. It’s safe to assume if that keeps up Chinese citizens can be pretty complacent. The needs and wants of a foreigner for the Chinese government will be vastly different from those of a citizen of China. For example we are primarily concerned with human rights, their cooperation in global politics, and other things that concern us as non citizens. But to a citizen they want jobs, food, a stable local economy. These are things China historically did not have, and which can at least be partially credited to the government for providing. By our metrics, yes they do poorly, but then our wants for the Chinese government are pretty much completely detached from that of a local citizen.

rhn_mk1 5y ago
Nothing makes me believe they don't support the government. Just like nothing makes me believe they could enact any change if they wanted, which is what the parent implied.

Barrin92 5y ago

Well basic math, there's more than a billion of them. How do you think the Communist party displaced the old regime? If the people were to march on Beijing the government would cease to exist within one day, which is of course why it actually tries really hard to keep the people happy. This is of course orthogonal to both the topic at hand and reality. The Chinese are quite content with their government and abuse of low-status criminals virtually never causes political turmoil. (not even in bleeding heart democracies) Also as a sidenote, it's not a totalitarian but an autocratic country. As William Gibson once remarked about Singapore, it's on its path to be Disneyland with the death penalty.

rhn_mk1 5y ago
I'm not familiar with the details of the Communist party, but today's China is autocratic. It's a mistake to take the democratic principle of "people can enact change" and take it to an autocratic government (and outright contradiction when using the adjective "totalitarian"). Okay, the government is also "people" in some way. But the "people" who can currently enact change are the ones who benefit from the current government, and it's silly to expect that they have a sudden synchronized change of mind. For the billions of masses, they don't stand a chance against an organized military response. We've had a taste of that in China itself in 1984, as well as in events leading up to South Korea's Gwangju Massacre. Parent's "only they can help themselves" quip is just a way of absolving any responsibility: "it's not my problem". I'm not saying whether we can do anything or not, but this kind of statements kill any rational thought towards solving the problem before it's even concieved.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  What is important to understand is that both democratic and autocratic governments depend on legitimacy. No the Chinese military or police would not stand any chance against the true popular will of the Chinese, not for a second. That is why the Chinese government has economic growth targets and social programs and so forth. If they could rule like medieval kings they would. All modern, large states are accountable to their people, regardless of whatever form of government rules. People in power can be responsive to the people or irresponsive in both autocracies and democracies. The Chinese government is extremely responsive to popular opinion, even if its unelected. In that sense it's no different than a big company, which isn't governed by its customers but accountable to them. The important question isn't, "is it my problem", it's "is it a problem". The Chinese are not children and we're not their parents. Believe it or not they have rational thought in China as well. Using our rational thought means taking seriously the notion that the Chinese do not want our political system, that they by and large if not support at least tolerate their state, and that it's not our problem to solve, because it is not a problem.