4 ms·

Doesn't everybody think their ideas are self evident? As for the gender one: imagine you woke up in the body of somebody of the opposite sex tomorrow. Wouldn't

Doesn't everybody think their ideas are self evident? As for the gender one: imagine you woke up in the body of somebody of the opposite sex tomorrow. Wouldn't you be in the wrong body? My understanding is that the "wrong body" argument is actually not an accurate explanation of trans people's experience though.

leephillips 4y ago
No. I think these are, more or less. But I have other ideas that are works in progress, or that I’m not so sure about. Gender: I was talking about reality, not science fiction scenarios. Yes, by definition, in your example, you would be in the wrong body.
- beaconstudios 4y ago
  In reality, people report not identifying with the body they were born in. What more evidence do you need? I think that's a good example of how people can be certain of their beliefs despite flying in the face of the evidence.
  - umvi 4y ago
    Maybe what OP was getting at is more like a "transgenderism is a mental illness" type of heretical statement
    - beaconstudios 4y ago
      I don't know, I don't like to assume these things. Either way, some ideas are "heretical" for a reason: they lead to worse outcomes. You could argue under the same "trans are mentally ill" model that gay people are too. But we don't, because letting gay people live their lives (or more accurately, not oppressing them) leads to better outcomes. That's what it's all about. And it's the same with trans people - if they're accepted and allowed to present how they want, outcomes are better.
      - leephillips 4y ago
        So you the person that PG is describing. Someone who feels that some things must not be said, even if they might be true, because of the outcomes that might result if we say them.
        beaconstudios 4y ago
        In what sense can "trans people are mental ill" be said to be true? Even if we only take gender dysphoria and treat it as a medical condition, it's highly resistant to therapy and is usually cured by leading the life the person wants to lead. My position is mainly that unethical things shouldn't be advocated for. I think there's no good argument for stopping trans people for living the lives they want to live, and that people will rightly criticise you for being opposed to them exercising their freedoms. It's not that these things "can't be said" but don't be surprised if people criticise you for it. I think people calling this heresy are being melodramatic - being ratio'd on twitter is not the same thing as being burned alive at the stake.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    Such self reports are not evidence of the reality of inherent gender, and are logically incoherent. They are surely attempts to describe an internal state of emotional distress, using phrases that the patient has overheard used by others. But they are no more “evidence” than someone saying “god is love” is evidence that “god” is “love”, or that the speaker has any coherent notion at all of what those words could possibly mean.
    - beaconstudios 4y ago
      > They are surely attempts to describe an internal state of emotional distress Yes, they're distressed because of this mismatch. > But they are no more “evidence” than someone saying “god is love” is evidence that “god” is “love”, or that the speaker has any coherent notion at all of what those words could possibly mean. You seem to be making an appeal to transcendental meaning - evidence isn't based on transcendental meaning or equivalence, it's based on observation of material reality. "gender" is a term created to describe the fact that trans people clearly have a mismatch between their sex and an internal property. That's all there is to it.
      - leephillips 4y ago
        How do they know that there is a “mismatch” between their sex and an internal property? What is the internal property. What is the material reality that we can observe that corresponds to this internal property? FMRI and anatomical studies are not able to detect this internal property.
        beaconstudios 4y ago
        By your framework, we can't assert that minds exist at all, let alone anything beyond like thoughts or feelings. The internal property is called gender.
        leephillips 4y ago
        I don’t understand why you say that. The fact that people can be deluded is not an argument against the existence of minds. My position would seem to be insisting that there is plenty beyond thoughts and feelings. What is gender, in the sense of an internal property? How do we detect it?

leephillips 4y ago

No. I think these are, more or less. But I have other ideas that are works in progress, or that I’m not so sure about. Gender: I was talking about reality, not science fiction scenarios. Yes, by definition, in your example, you would be in the wrong body.

beaconstudios 4y ago
In reality, people report not identifying with the body they were born in. What more evidence do you need? I think that's a good example of how people can be certain of their beliefs despite flying in the face of the evidence.
- umvi 4y ago
  Maybe what OP was getting at is more like a "transgenderism is a mental illness" type of heretical statement
  - beaconstudios 4y ago
    I don't know, I don't like to assume these things. Either way, some ideas are "heretical" for a reason: they lead to worse outcomes. You could argue under the same "trans are mentally ill" model that gay people are too. But we don't, because letting gay people live their lives (or more accurately, not oppressing them) leads to better outcomes. That's what it's all about. And it's the same with trans people - if they're accepted and allowed to present how they want, outcomes are better.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      So you the person that PG is describing. Someone who feels that some things must not be said, even if they might be true, because of the outcomes that might result if we say them.
      - beaconstudios 4y ago
        In what sense can "trans people are mental ill" be said to be true? Even if we only take gender dysphoria and treat it as a medical condition, it's highly resistant to therapy and is usually cured by leading the life the person wants to lead. My position is mainly that unethical things shouldn't be advocated for. I think there's no good argument for stopping trans people for living the lives they want to live, and that people will rightly criticise you for being opposed to them exercising their freedoms. It's not that these things "can't be said" but don't be surprised if people criticise you for it. I think people calling this heresy are being melodramatic - being ratio'd on twitter is not the same thing as being burned alive at the stake.
- leephillips 4y ago
  Such self reports are not evidence of the reality of inherent gender, and are logically incoherent. They are surely attempts to describe an internal state of emotional distress, using phrases that the patient has overheard used by others. But they are no more “evidence” than someone saying “god is love” is evidence that “god” is “love”, or that the speaker has any coherent notion at all of what those words could possibly mean.
  - beaconstudios 4y ago
    > They are surely attempts to describe an internal state of emotional distress Yes, they're distressed because of this mismatch. > But they are no more “evidence” than someone saying “god is love” is evidence that “god” is “love”, or that the speaker has any coherent notion at all of what those words could possibly mean. You seem to be making an appeal to transcendental meaning - evidence isn't based on transcendental meaning or equivalence, it's based on observation of material reality. "gender" is a term created to describe the fact that trans people clearly have a mismatch between their sex and an internal property. That's all there is to it.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      How do they know that there is a “mismatch” between their sex and an internal property? What is the internal property. What is the material reality that we can observe that corresponds to this internal property? FMRI and anatomical studies are not able to detect this internal property.
      - beaconstudios 4y ago
        By your framework, we can't assert that minds exist at all, let alone anything beyond like thoughts or feelings. The internal property is called gender.
        leephillips 4y ago
        I don’t understand why you say that. The fact that people can be deluded is not an argument against the existence of minds. My position would seem to be insisting that there is plenty beyond thoughts and feelings. What is gender, in the sense of an internal property? How do we detect it?