4 ms·

Somehow Gen Z gets a free pass to refer to everyone as they, regardless of that fact that some of us would rather not be referred to that way. The norms are no

Somehow Gen Z gets a free pass to refer to everyone as they, regardless of that fact that some of us would rather not be referred to that way. The norms are not as straightforward as you claim.

nicoburns 5y ago
I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you?
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  It doesn’t seem reasonable to me for people to get offended if I use the pronouns that best match the gender presentation I see. This is what English speakers have been doing since there have been English speakers. But there are people out there that tell me it is bothersome. Out of respect, I modify how I speak and write. Why shouldn’t I get the same courtesy?
- thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
  >> I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you? What is the point of specifying pronouns then? Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? Instead of using someone's name you could just refer to everyone as "Hey You", but that seems discourteous and disrespectful. Why not just use their preferred name and pronouns?
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. It's not referring to someone by the wrong gender, it's not referring to them by their gender at all. > What is the point of specifying pronouns then? I'd argue that there probably isn't much point. Why do we refer to people by their gender? No idea. It doesn't make any sense to me.
    - bradleyjg 5y ago
      No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. You are absolutely misgendering people but you get a free pass because contra fosefx this whole pronoun thing is about power and who has it, rather than universal respect.
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        > When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. It can be used for this, but it's also used for someone of indeterminate gender or if you simply don't want to mention their gender. For example: "Oooh, that's such a beautiful baby, are they a boy or a girl" "Does your friend want to buy my phone? You said they were interested?"
        bradleyjg 5y ago
        But I am not an unknown person. If you know who I am and you’ve had an opportunity to see my preferred pronouns but choose to disregard those preferences you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he.
        nicoburns 5y ago
        > you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he. I think it's more analogous to referring to a transwoman as "they", which I also do. "They" does not gender you at all, so it can't misgender you. I don't think you (or anyone else be they cisgender or transgender) have a right be referred to by your gender, whether you prefer it or not. I think that's different to be referred to by a gender you consider worng. In that case someone is actively labelling you as a gender. By calling you "they" I'm saying I think you're genderless, whereas by calling someone "he" I think you are saying you think they're male. If you had a strong preference to be referred to by your gender then I probably would make an effort to do that, but I don't think you are owed that (to be honest I wish trans people weren't so hung up on pronouns too - I think it's silly to be so fussy about language - but I have seen cases where they're used maliciously so I can somewhat understand why they are).
tomrod 5y ago
It sure would be great if English could be simplified to remove gendered pronouns. In Tagalog, it/she/he is a simple word, "siya" (pronounced "sha" if said quickly).
mcronce 5y ago
How is this a gen Z thing? Singular "they" has been around as a gender-neutral pronoun for, literally, hundreds of years.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right?
  - mcronce 5y ago
    > This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. This seems less like a material distinction and more like something that transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology. > Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right? My point was that it isn't new or somehow "a gen Z thing", not "all old things are good"
    - bradleyjg 5y ago
      transphobic people transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology No one has said anything about trans people, we were talking Gen z butchering the English language. Also, is it a disorder (“phobic”) or an ideology? Or do you not understand that distinction either?
      - mcronce 5y ago
        Transphobia, much like homophobia, refers to an ideology, not an actual fear. Nice try getting on your prescriptivist high horse, though.

Somehow Gen Z gets a free pass to refer to everyone as they, regardless of that fact that some of us would rather not be referred to that way. The norms are not as straightforward as you claim.

nicoburns 5y ago

I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you?

bradleyjg 5y ago
It doesn’t seem reasonable to me for people to get offended if I use the pronouns that best match the gender presentation I see. This is what English speakers have been doing since there have been English speakers. But there are people out there that tell me it is bothersome. Out of respect, I modify how I speak and write. Why shouldn’t I get the same courtesy?
thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
>> I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you? What is the point of specifying pronouns then? Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? Instead of using someone's name you could just refer to everyone as "Hey You", but that seems discourteous and disrespectful. Why not just use their preferred name and pronouns?
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. It's not referring to someone by the wrong gender, it's not referring to them by their gender at all. > What is the point of specifying pronouns then? I'd argue that there probably isn't much point. Why do we refer to people by their gender? No idea. It doesn't make any sense to me.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. You are absolutely misgendering people but you get a free pass because contra fosefx this whole pronoun thing is about power and who has it, rather than universal respect.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      > When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. It can be used for this, but it's also used for someone of indeterminate gender or if you simply don't want to mention their gender. For example: "Oooh, that's such a beautiful baby, are they a boy or a girl" "Does your friend want to buy my phone? You said they were interested?"
      - bradleyjg 5y ago
        But I am not an unknown person. If you know who I am and you’ve had an opportunity to see my preferred pronouns but choose to disregard those preferences you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he.
        nicoburns 5y ago
        > you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he. I think it's more analogous to referring to a transwoman as "they", which I also do. "They" does not gender you at all, so it can't misgender you. I don't think you (or anyone else be they cisgender or transgender) have a right be referred to by your gender, whether you prefer it or not. I think that's different to be referred to by a gender you consider worng. In that case someone is actively labelling you as a gender. By calling you "they" I'm saying I think you're genderless, whereas by calling someone "he" I think you are saying you think they're male. If you had a strong preference to be referred to by your gender then I probably would make an effort to do that, but I don't think you are owed that (to be honest I wish trans people weren't so hung up on pronouns too - I think it's silly to be so fussy about language - but I have seen cases where they're used maliciously so I can somewhat understand why they are).

tomrod 5y ago

It sure would be great if English could be simplified to remove gendered pronouns. In Tagalog, it/she/he is a simple word, "siya" (pronounced "sha" if said quickly).

mcronce 5y ago

How is this a gen Z thing? Singular "they" has been around as a gender-neutral pronoun for, literally, hundreds of years.

bradleyjg 5y ago
This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right?
- mcronce 5y ago
  > This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. This seems less like a material distinction and more like something that transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology. > Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right? My point was that it isn't new or somehow "a gen Z thing", not "all old things are good"
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    transphobic people transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology No one has said anything about trans people, we were talking Gen z butchering the English language. Also, is it a disorder (“phobic”) or an ideology? Or do you not understand that distinction either?
    - mcronce 5y ago
      Transphobia, much like homophobia, refers to an ideology, not an actual fear. Nice try getting on your prescriptivist high horse, though.