11 ms·

What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

15 points by vaghetti 5y ago

jleyank 5y ago
They could always try to revisit synthetic fuel methodology as there’s a long history of that in Europe. Can try novel technology, conservation or throwing money at the marketplace. Europe rebuilt from devastation a few times over the last century. I suspect they can deal with energy cost.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  It takes a lot of energy to create synthetic fuels. You need a source of that energy.
  - snovv_crash 5y ago
    Liquid fuel from coal is commercially viable. I guess the same would be true for gas.
  - jleyank 5y ago
    It might be a good way to get a transportable form of solar - use it w/o transmission (or distant transmission) to process solid -> liquid/gas and transport that. Processing the coal might be able to reduce some of the worst environmental effects (sulfur?). They took what looked like an easy solution that would help integrate Russian into the European economy. Not every decision pans out.
bjoli 5y ago
Real patriots isolate their windows!
- hulitu 5y ago
  Real patriots use they own body temperature to heat the house.
  - Borrible 5y ago
    Really real patriots do not need to heat, because they have an inner fire, burning fiercely. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/01/19/putin-takes-icy-dip-in-orthodox-christian-ritual-a72659 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/01/19/putin-takes-icy-di... ... And hopefully with heavy weapons that bastard and his miserable minions will be stopped cold. Slava Ukraini
elzbardico 5y ago
Generalized world recession spilling into epic, catastrophic famines and wars in the third world.
xyzzy21 5y ago
The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  Electric heat pumps can be over 100% efficient as they are using ambient heat to warm the house.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    Indeed. A recent Technology Connections video was on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI
  - hulitu 5y ago
    Damn entropy.
- MetricExpansion 5y ago
  This is a really bad take. Heat pumps can have coefficients of performance (joules of cooling provided over joules of energy consumed) between 2.5-5 (going down as outside temperatures drop). In most situations, it’s more efficient to burn the gas for electricity and then put it into a heat pump than to burn it directly for heating. In the very coldest situations, where the heat pump less effective, then you may use the resistive heating to augment it. And “green” tech is about changing power generation sources so that, even if you have some more inefficiency, it’s not polluting the planet or running down finite resources as much.
- brtkdotse 5y ago
  Must… resist… “well actually” this person about heat pumps…
  - 5y ago
Borrible 5y ago
Barring a sudden but protracted scenario like an all-out-embargo that fuels (pun intended) my crazy post-apocalyptic gas war fantasies following massive heated social turmoil of the cold rabble boiling with rage, I anticipate minor problems for the grid, to which millions of electric heaters are suddenly connected. And although electric heaters are child's play to produce, I have my doubts about rapid implementation. Of course, I already have two of them. One in the basement, one in my garden shed. And a small portable power station, nothing fancy.
radu_floricica 5y ago
This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a supply problem. They cost under $10 and they universally have 100% efficiency. As for building them... in my youth I've seen plenty made with just a brick and wire. We won't run out of them. Issues are electricity cost and peak consumption. I predict plenty of wiring issues - not many people know their house's wiring is rated for a certain amperage, and having an extra 2-4 kw of electrical heating can easily put them over. Quite a few fuses will trip next winter. But the real issue will be cost.
- martindbp 5y ago
  Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally, as a Swede I'm very much willing to turn down/off the heat if that can force an end to Russian aggression, as I'm sure many others in Europe are. We can still live comfortably by for example heating one room instead of five. The important part is that industry is not affected.
  - radu_floricica 5y ago
    I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of such policies. Just like how poor people would definitely feel the extra euro paid by supply chain issues created by a full ban of plastic, also poor people will pay the most utility cost of having more expensive heating. Euro, we pay the same, but pain will be concentrated in the lower income levels. And btw, I strongly dislike having to type this. I'm both a libertarian and a Romanian, and on both counts I shouldn't have to take this position. But those are the facts. Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed. A home is a home, you don't go back there to pitch a tent in the living room, not unless it's a literal war zone. So whatever things we prepare for, imagining 8 degree cuts is just a fantasy. We just have to find other options.
cersa8 5y ago
"The IEA indicates average indoor temperatures in the EU are now about 22° C" Wow, current room temperature here is around 16 degrees Celsius, perfectly fine as long as you don't wear a t-shirt. Still comfortable too. I guess it all depends on what you're used to. As an added benefit, a lower room temperature induces a higher metabolic rate [0] , which could help fight our obesity problem (okay, that might be stretching it a bit) [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/1601308 https://www.nature.com/articles/1601308

15 points by vaghetti 5y ago

They could always try to revisit synthetic fuel methodology as there’s a long history of that in Europe. Can try novel technology, conservation or throwing money at the marketplace. Europe rebuilt from devastation a few times over the last century. I suspect they can deal with energy cost.

Tagbert 5y ago
It takes a lot of energy to create synthetic fuels. You need a source of that energy.
- snovv_crash 5y ago
  Liquid fuel from coal is commercially viable. I guess the same would be true for gas.
- jleyank 5y ago
  It might be a good way to get a transportable form of solar - use it w/o transmission (or distant transmission) to process solid -> liquid/gas and transport that. Processing the coal might be able to reduce some of the worst environmental effects (sulfur?). They took what looked like an easy solution that would help integrate Russian into the European economy. Not every decision pans out.

bjoli 5y ago

Real patriots isolate their windows!

hulitu 5y ago
Real patriots use they own body temperature to heat the house.
- Borrible 5y ago
  Really real patriots do not need to heat, because they have an inner fire, burning fiercely. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/01/19/putin-takes-icy-dip-in-orthodox-christian-ritual-a72659 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/01/19/putin-takes-icy-di... ... And hopefully with heavy weapons that bastard and his miserable minions will be stopped cold. Slava Ukraini

elzbardico 5y ago

Generalized world recession spilling into epic, catastrophic famines and wars in the third world.

xyzzy21 5y ago

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

Tagbert 5y ago
Electric heat pumps can be over 100% efficient as they are using ambient heat to warm the house.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  Indeed. A recent Technology Connections video was on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI
- hulitu 5y ago
  Damn entropy.
MetricExpansion 5y ago
This is a really bad take. Heat pumps can have coefficients of performance (joules of cooling provided over joules of energy consumed) between 2.5-5 (going down as outside temperatures drop). In most situations, it’s more efficient to burn the gas for electricity and then put it into a heat pump than to burn it directly for heating. In the very coldest situations, where the heat pump less effective, then you may use the resistive heating to augment it. And “green” tech is about changing power generation sources so that, even if you have some more inefficiency, it’s not polluting the planet or running down finite resources as much.
brtkdotse 5y ago
Must… resist… “well actually” this person about heat pumps…
- 5y ago

Borrible 5y ago

Barring a sudden but protracted scenario like an all-out-embargo that fuels (pun intended) my crazy post-apocalyptic gas war fantasies following massive heated social turmoil of the cold rabble boiling with rage, I anticipate minor problems for the grid, to which millions of electric heaters are suddenly connected. And although electric heaters are child's play to produce, I have my doubts about rapid implementation. Of course, I already have two of them. One in the basement, one in my garden shed. And a small portable power station, nothing fancy.

radu_floricica 5y ago

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a supply problem. They cost under $10 and they universally have 100% efficiency. As for building them... in my youth I've seen plenty made with just a brick and wire. We won't run out of them. Issues are electricity cost and peak consumption. I predict plenty of wiring issues - not many people know their house's wiring is rated for a certain amperage, and having an extra 2-4 kw of electrical heating can easily put them over. Quite a few fuses will trip next winter. But the real issue will be cost.

martindbp 5y ago
Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally, as a Swede I'm very much willing to turn down/off the heat if that can force an end to Russian aggression, as I'm sure many others in Europe are. We can still live comfortably by for example heating one room instead of five. The important part is that industry is not affected.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of such policies. Just like how poor people would definitely feel the extra euro paid by supply chain issues created by a full ban of plastic, also poor people will pay the most utility cost of having more expensive heating. Euro, we pay the same, but pain will be concentrated in the lower income levels. And btw, I strongly dislike having to type this. I'm both a libertarian and a Romanian, and on both counts I shouldn't have to take this position. But those are the facts. Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed. A home is a home, you don't go back there to pitch a tent in the living room, not unless it's a literal war zone. So whatever things we prepare for, imagining 8 degree cuts is just a fantasy. We just have to find other options.

cersa8 5y ago

"The IEA indicates average indoor temperatures in the EU are now about 22° C" Wow, current room temperature here is around 16 degrees Celsius, perfectly fine as long as you don't wear a t-shirt. Still comfortable too. I guess it all depends on what you're used to. As an added benefit, a lower room temperature induces a higher metabolic rate [0] , which could help fight our obesity problem (okay, that might be stretching it a bit) [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/1601308 https://www.nature.com/articles/1601308