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I don't know but if the military didn't dominate Pakistan, I wonder if there would be such a regime right now. Even if Pakistan breaks the mold, there are lots

by slibhb 5y ago

I don't know but if the military didn't dominate Pakistan, I wonder if there would be such a regime right now. Even if Pakistan breaks the mold, there are lots of Muslim countries that don't. Even actual Arab countries (as in the Arabian peninsula) have dictatorships that are far more secular than the population and exert violence to control Islamist sentiment.

unmole 5y ago
> I don't know but if the military didn't dominate Pakistan, I wonder if there would be such a regime right now. Based on what, exactly? Your thesis was: > Muslim-dominated countries tend to be caught in a stalemate between popular Islamist regimes and military dictatorship. And you cited Pakistan as an example. When it's pointed out that the situation in Pakistan is the opposite of your theory, your response is to double down on it? > Even actual Arab countries (as in the Arabian peninsula) have dictatorships that are far more secular than the population and exert violence to control Islamist sentiment. Like which ones? Most of them try to co-opt Islam as way to bolster their legitimacy. And they crackdown on any movement they see as a threat to their power, Islamic or otherwise.
- slibhb 5y ago
  I'm not an expert on Pakistan and I'm generalizing. Generalization is necessary to say anything including "the US shouldn't be training African armies" (something I agree with). As I said in my previous post, Pakistan may not fit the pattern but plenty of other Muslim countries do. I recognize your claim that Zia, a military dictator, was the source of Pakistani Islamism. I would ask you (I don't know, I'm genuinely interested): in Pakistan, today, is the military more or less Islamist than the populace? > Like which ones? Most of them try to co-opt Islam as way to bolster their legitimacy. And they crackdown on any movement they see as a threat to their power, Islamic or otherwise. I agree with your description: these countries "co-opt Islam as way to bolster their legitimacy". My point is that they are less religious than the populace. They execute actual Islamists who are a threat to their power.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > All generalizations are false, including this one. My problem is simplistic explanations tend to be very misleading. And I am very skeptical of cultural existentialism being a useful tool in understanding societies. > pattern but plenty of other Muslim countries do. I'm asking again, which ones? > (I don't know, I'm genuinely interested): in Pakistan, today, is the military more or less Islamist Pakistani society is probably the most Islamist in the world. The elite, both civilian and military are considerably less so. > They execute actual Islamists who are a threat to their power. They'll execute blasphemers, apostates, homosexuals and adulterers too. Along with liberals and communists.
    - slibhb 5y ago
      > Pakistani society is probably the most Islamist in the world. The elite, both civilian and military are considerably less so. Okay, so why is it such a stretch to say "if the military didn't dominate Pakistan, I wonder if there would be [an Islamist regime] right now"? Maybe that wouldn't be the case, maybe the elites who are also less Islamist would dominate, but it's not a crazy idea. Having opinions about "Islam" or "governance" or "politics" is going to get you into a corner somewhere. But we have to have opinions about these things. What keeps us from paradox, as far as I'm concerned, is that some opinions are more right than others and actual events that occur out in the world confirm or refute certain opinions.

by slibhb 5y ago

unmole 5y ago

> I don't know but if the military didn't dominate Pakistan, I wonder if there would be such a regime right now. Based on what, exactly? Your thesis was: > Muslim-dominated countries tend to be caught in a stalemate between popular Islamist regimes and military dictatorship. And you cited Pakistan as an example. When it's pointed out that the situation in Pakistan is the opposite of your theory, your response is to double down on it? > Even actual Arab countries (as in the Arabian peninsula) have dictatorships that are far more secular than the population and exert violence to control Islamist sentiment. Like which ones? Most of them try to co-opt Islam as way to bolster their legitimacy. And they crackdown on any movement they see as a threat to their power, Islamic or otherwise.

slibhb 5y ago
I'm not an expert on Pakistan and I'm generalizing. Generalization is necessary to say anything including "the US shouldn't be training African armies" (something I agree with). As I said in my previous post, Pakistan may not fit the pattern but plenty of other Muslim countries do. I recognize your claim that Zia, a military dictator, was the source of Pakistani Islamism. I would ask you (I don't know, I'm genuinely interested): in Pakistan, today, is the military more or less Islamist than the populace? > Like which ones? Most of them try to co-opt Islam as way to bolster their legitimacy. And they crackdown on any movement they see as a threat to their power, Islamic or otherwise. I agree with your description: these countries "co-opt Islam as way to bolster their legitimacy". My point is that they are less religious than the populace. They execute actual Islamists who are a threat to their power.
- unmole 5y ago
  > All generalizations are false, including this one. My problem is simplistic explanations tend to be very misleading. And I am very skeptical of cultural existentialism being a useful tool in understanding societies. > pattern but plenty of other Muslim countries do. I'm asking again, which ones? > (I don't know, I'm genuinely interested): in Pakistan, today, is the military more or less Islamist Pakistani society is probably the most Islamist in the world. The elite, both civilian and military are considerably less so. > They execute actual Islamists who are a threat to their power. They'll execute blasphemers, apostates, homosexuals and adulterers too. Along with liberals and communists.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    > Pakistani society is probably the most Islamist in the world. The elite, both civilian and military are considerably less so. Okay, so why is it such a stretch to say "if the military didn't dominate Pakistan, I wonder if there would be [an Islamist regime] right now"? Maybe that wouldn't be the case, maybe the elites who are also less Islamist would dominate, but it's not a crazy idea. Having opinions about "Islam" or "governance" or "politics" is going to get you into a corner somewhere. But we have to have opinions about these things. What keeps us from paradox, as far as I'm concerned, is that some opinions are more right than others and actual events that occur out in the world confirm or refute certain opinions.