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> Stalin, who moved out many "inferior races" Stalin never bothered with races at all. Nazis did. > This "badly-divided country" has been created by Stalin le

by maratc 5y ago

> Stalin, who moved out many "inferior races" Stalin never bothered with races at all. Nazis did. > This "badly-divided country" has been created by Stalin less than a century ago. Now you're just repeating Putin's own words — "Ukraine was created by Soviet Russia". > colonists have been privileged in comparison with the natives The relations between Russians and Ukrainians are not of "colonists" and "natives" — it's fundamentally different from Brits/Hindus, or French/Algerians, or Italians/Ethiopians. They are two branches of the same group of people. The modern Russian state, and its church, both trace themselves to Kiev. Your understanding of Ukraine's history is so factually incorrect, to the point that I don't see a reason to continue this conversation.

adrian_b 5y ago
Unlike Hitler, Stalin did not use the word "race", but he acted identically against various population groups distinguished by their nationality, which is why I have used the word "race", to emphasize their identical behavior. Just a couple of examples of the nationalities which were removed from the territories now in Ukraine, sent to remote areas, e.g. in Siberia or Uzbekistan, and replaced with Russians are the Tatars and the Romanians. > Now you're just repeating Putin's own words — "Ukraine was created by Soviet Russia". You have either misunderstood or you pretend to have misunderstood what I have said. You said that Ukraine is divided now, I said that this division mentioned by you was created by Stalin, not so long ago. I have used the word "natives", because the natives are mostly Ukrainians but also many other minorities. > They are two branches of the same group of people The fact that one millennium ago their ancestors were a single people means nothing when today they do not treat each other as equals. During the Soviet Union, those belonging to a minority, either Ukrainian or any other minority, could indeed have similar career advancement opportunities like the Russians, but only with the following conditions: master the official Russian language, never express any doubt about the bullshit history that was taught in the Soviet Union, according to which everything good in the world, in any art, science, technology and even sports, has been discovered or invented by some unknown great Russian, even if the Imperialists claim otherwise (at least this was the version of history that I have seen in the Russian manuals used prior to 1970, I do not know if the later manuals became less fantastic), never say anything that would show lack of agreement with the idea that even if the Soviet Union had a very large number of nationalities, all with equal rights, the Russians deserve to be much more equal and they must always be imitated in everything, as they know better, from political and economical organization to science and technology and even in minor aspects, e.g. the names of the soccer teams. Basically, in the Soviet Union anyone belonging to a minority could indeed have the same success like a Russian, but by becoming a Russian. Regarding my understanding of Ukraine's history I can assure you that I know much more correct facts than you presume, and not from secondary sources, but from direct sources, because my mother had many relatives who were deported to Siberia, robbed or murdered by Russians, in territories of the present Ukraine. Also, I understand very well Russian so I form my opinion about the actions of Russia mainly by looking at what they themselves say, and not by what others say about Russia.
- thriftwy 5y ago
  > master the official Russian language, never express any doubt about the bullshit history that was taught in the Soviet Union Isn't it the same in the modern USA? Implicit agreement with official narrative can get you anywhere, whereas explicit disagreement with it will get you cancelled. In fact, both in the Soviet Union and the USA it would be easier to advance if you declare yourself a minority, even if the basis for such claim is weak.
  - maratc 5y ago
    > Isn't it the same in the modern USA? This has been the Empire building-101 for ages: if you respect the state authority (emperor/czar/rule-of-law), state ideas (christianity/communism/democracy) and speak the state language, you can make it to the top — regardless of your ethnicity. Even the Roman Empire had an Emperor who was Arab (historians agree he was really ethnic arab) and another one who was African (historians disagree just how black he was, but definitely agree he was unusually black). Salah-ad-Din (Saladin) was Kurdish. Russian Empire had tons of Germans/French/Swedes at their service. Of the famous Nazis, Otto Scorzeny was Polish (Skozheny would be a better rendition of his name) and Odilo Globochnik, Slovakian. Etc. etc. etc. The idea that Ukrainians were somehow a "minority" in either Russian Empire or USSR is laughable to no end. Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians were a majority, and there would be no way to tell between them, unless you would study their personnel files. It's as laughable as suggesting that Austrian nazis were somehow treated badly by German nazis.
- pasabagi 5y ago
  > "inferior races" > Unlike Hitler, Stalin did not use the word "race", but he acted identically against various population groups distinguished by their nationality, which is why I have used the word "race", to emphasize their identical behavior. I don't have particular bones to pick with your history, but you're misusing quotation marks.

by maratc 5y ago

adrian_b 5y ago

Unlike Hitler, Stalin did not use the word "race", but he acted identically against various population groups distinguished by their nationality, which is why I have used the word "race", to emphasize their identical behavior. Just a couple of examples of the nationalities which were removed from the territories now in Ukraine, sent to remote areas, e.g. in Siberia or Uzbekistan, and replaced with Russians are the Tatars and the Romanians. > Now you're just repeating Putin's own words — "Ukraine was created by Soviet Russia". You have either misunderstood or you pretend to have misunderstood what I have said. You said that Ukraine is divided now, I said that this division mentioned by you was created by Stalin, not so long ago. I have used the word "natives", because the natives are mostly Ukrainians but also many other minorities. > They are two branches of the same group of people The fact that one millennium ago their ancestors were a single people means nothing when today they do not treat each other as equals. During the Soviet Union, those belonging to a minority, either Ukrainian or any other minority, could indeed have similar career advancement opportunities like the Russians, but only with the following conditions: master the official Russian language, never express any doubt about the bullshit history that was taught in the Soviet Union, according to which everything good in the world, in any art, science, technology and even sports, has been discovered or invented by some unknown great Russian, even if the Imperialists claim otherwise (at least this was the version of history that I have seen in the Russian manuals used prior to 1970, I do not know if the later manuals became less fantastic), never say anything that would show lack of agreement with the idea that even if the Soviet Union had a very large number of nationalities, all with equal rights, the Russians deserve to be much more equal and they must always be imitated in everything, as they know better, from political and economical organization to science and technology and even in minor aspects, e.g. the names of the soccer teams. Basically, in the Soviet Union anyone belonging to a minority could indeed have the same success like a Russian, but by becoming a Russian. Regarding my understanding of Ukraine's history I can assure you that I know much more correct facts than you presume, and not from secondary sources, but from direct sources, because my mother had many relatives who were deported to Siberia, robbed or murdered by Russians, in territories of the present Ukraine. Also, I understand very well Russian so I form my opinion about the actions of Russia mainly by looking at what they themselves say, and not by what others say about Russia.

thriftwy 5y ago
> master the official Russian language, never express any doubt about the bullshit history that was taught in the Soviet Union Isn't it the same in the modern USA? Implicit agreement with official narrative can get you anywhere, whereas explicit disagreement with it will get you cancelled. In fact, both in the Soviet Union and the USA it would be easier to advance if you declare yourself a minority, even if the basis for such claim is weak.
- maratc 5y ago
  > Isn't it the same in the modern USA? This has been the Empire building-101 for ages: if you respect the state authority (emperor/czar/rule-of-law), state ideas (christianity/communism/democracy) and speak the state language, you can make it to the top — regardless of your ethnicity. Even the Roman Empire had an Emperor who was Arab (historians agree he was really ethnic arab) and another one who was African (historians disagree just how black he was, but definitely agree he was unusually black). Salah-ad-Din (Saladin) was Kurdish. Russian Empire had tons of Germans/French/Swedes at their service. Of the famous Nazis, Otto Scorzeny was Polish (Skozheny would be a better rendition of his name) and Odilo Globochnik, Slovakian. Etc. etc. etc. The idea that Ukrainians were somehow a "minority" in either Russian Empire or USSR is laughable to no end. Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians were a majority, and there would be no way to tell between them, unless you would study their personnel files. It's as laughable as suggesting that Austrian nazis were somehow treated badly by German nazis.
pasabagi 5y ago
> "inferior races" > Unlike Hitler, Stalin did not use the word "race", but he acted identically against various population groups distinguished by their nationality, which is why I have used the word "race", to emphasize their identical behavior. I don't have particular bones to pick with your history, but you're misusing quotation marks.