5 ms·

I did not know about how terribly is that: Famous Programers with Repetitive Strain Injury http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html http://

I did not know about how terribly is that: Famous Programers with Repetitive Strain Injury http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.htm... Seems that Emacs is no good in excess!

NeutralForest 5y ago
The risk is overstated, many people have used without any issue and there is no control group as well, those programmers might have issues either way, Emacs or not.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > there is no control group as well VIM users?
  - NeutralForest 5y ago
    Maybe, now there needs a case for significant differences in pain levels among Emacs vs Vim users.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      To be fair, the pain that VIM users feel is not in their digits or wrists! :wq
  - deltille 5y ago
    VIM started flirting with giving me RSI issues (mostly : and esc keys; yes, even on capslock. I have small hands) after some years. It's a comparison certainly but not a control.
    - sva_ 5y ago
      > esc key You may use Ctrl-[ instead. What do you mean about capslock? Mapping capslock to esc?
      - User23 5y ago
        With a modern firmware or maybe software you can map capslock to be escape when tapped and control when held. I hear this is nice for vi, and it’s also nice for emacs since escape can serve as meta. I’m going to try that with the key left of space, since it feels completely obvious that the thumb is the natural best finger for modifier keys.
        mijoharas 5y ago
        I've been using this for years and can say it's very nice. Caps2esc under Wayland and I think I used to use xcape under x11 though it's been a while. (caps2esc has a configurable framework so you can use that for a different key and it should work nicely for you)
      - dotancohen 4y ago
        As a heavy VIM user, that combo never made sense to me. ESC is a single pinky or other finger (I personally move my entire left hand forward and out from the elbow, and press ESC with my middle finger). Using Ctrl-[ requires using _two_ weak pinkies.
- froh 5y ago
  Also the problem affects the whole the meta group of coders, beyond emacs. Even in the article one of the poor RSI victims explicitly is an avid vi user and emacs hater (John Ousterhout of TCL fame). Phew.
nickcw 5y ago
I'm an Emacs user and I've struggled with RSI throughout my career. I don't know whether I blame Emacs particularly, but the ctrl-letter chords aren't kind on the wrists. For me, switching the mouse to my left hand and using split keyboards (I like the Microsoft natural keyboard) has helped a lot. It's taken about as many years as it took to get bad to get better again. If my wrists start hurting I will take a break and I might use ice on them in the evenings if it gets bad. If your wrists start hurting get professional help before it gets really bad. I had to try a lot of things before I found improvements and the improvements are really slow. Physiotherapy can help improve things in the short term. Would I still have RSI if I was a vi user? Probably. I think it is more a personality thing, wanting to finish the job so ignoring your body telling you that you should take a break.
B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
After some ten years of Emacs use, I spent a few hours crafting less insane ways of invoking common functions, to save my wrists. Later I just stopped typing so much so fast, and even - apostasy - gave up using Emacs altogether. And so it goes.
JackMorgan 5y ago
I used to have bad RSI using emacs, so I enabled evil (vim) mode, got a split keyboard, started lifting weights, and found a job where I could pair program all the time. Sounds extreme, but it eventually healed. I only have issues now when writing books, since I often set myself a daily word target and that extra load seems to just add to overall strain.
davidfactorial 5y ago
The best thing I ever did for my hands was putting ctrl to the left of the spacebar where alt usually is. I hit it with my left thumb. I never have to contort my wrists. And it works across all programs, not just vim/emacs. Capslock is still using the pinky. I also switched to Dvorak and put backspace on Capslock, which I think also helped but might be diminishing returns. But I still really like ctrl on alt for my single best ergonomics tweak.
adityaathalye 5y ago
I don't have RSI, but I've felt strains and transient pains from time to time after hyperfocus computering. For me three things help a lot, to keep things "normal". 1. Avoid typing in the first place (seriously, avoiding the "Repetitive" bit is useful). Lots of typing stuff for me is thinking / revision stuff. So I do that in my head or on paper / whiteboard. 2. Put Ctrl under my thumbs as the lord intended https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard so no Emacs Pinky. 3. Use chording for moving around / yank / kill etc. I also use Vim, but separately. Maybe EVIL will give similar results. But "methods to not need to type" category of stuff is probably the main thing for me. Also as some others note, "using body and strenghtening it" category of stuff is also fundamental to my, ah, process. IMHO strain injuries are rooted in mechanical imbalance as much as they are rooted in overuse. (Edit: added more detail, clarifications.)

NeutralForest 5y ago

The risk is overstated, many people have used without any issue and there is no control group as well, those programmers might have issues either way, Emacs or not.

dotancohen 5y ago
> there is no control group as well VIM users?
- NeutralForest 5y ago
  Maybe, now there needs a case for significant differences in pain levels among Emacs vs Vim users.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    To be fair, the pain that VIM users feel is not in their digits or wrists! :wq
- deltille 5y ago
  VIM started flirting with giving me RSI issues (mostly : and esc keys; yes, even on capslock. I have small hands) after some years. It's a comparison certainly but not a control.
  - sva_ 5y ago
    > esc key You may use Ctrl-[ instead. What do you mean about capslock? Mapping capslock to esc?
    - User23 5y ago
      With a modern firmware or maybe software you can map capslock to be escape when tapped and control when held. I hear this is nice for vi, and it’s also nice for emacs since escape can serve as meta. I’m going to try that with the key left of space, since it feels completely obvious that the thumb is the natural best finger for modifier keys.
      - mijoharas 5y ago
        I've been using this for years and can say it's very nice. Caps2esc under Wayland and I think I used to use xcape under x11 though it's been a while. (caps2esc has a configurable framework so you can use that for a different key and it should work nicely for you)
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      As a heavy VIM user, that combo never made sense to me. ESC is a single pinky or other finger (I personally move my entire left hand forward and out from the elbow, and press ESC with my middle finger). Using Ctrl-[ requires using _two_ weak pinkies.
froh 5y ago
Also the problem affects the whole the meta group of coders, beyond emacs. Even in the article one of the poor RSI victims explicitly is an avid vi user and emacs hater (John Ousterhout of TCL fame). Phew.

nickcw 5y ago

I'm an Emacs user and I've struggled with RSI throughout my career. I don't know whether I blame Emacs particularly, but the ctrl-letter chords aren't kind on the wrists. For me, switching the mouse to my left hand and using split keyboards (I like the Microsoft natural keyboard) has helped a lot. It's taken about as many years as it took to get bad to get better again. If my wrists start hurting I will take a break and I might use ice on them in the evenings if it gets bad. If your wrists start hurting get professional help before it gets really bad. I had to try a lot of things before I found improvements and the improvements are really slow. Physiotherapy can help improve things in the short term. Would I still have RSI if I was a vi user? Probably. I think it is more a personality thing, wanting to finish the job so ignoring your body telling you that you should take a break.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago

After some ten years of Emacs use, I spent a few hours crafting less insane ways of invoking common functions, to save my wrists. Later I just stopped typing so much so fast, and even - apostasy - gave up using Emacs altogether. And so it goes.

JackMorgan 5y ago

I used to have bad RSI using emacs, so I enabled evil (vim) mode, got a split keyboard, started lifting weights, and found a job where I could pair program all the time. Sounds extreme, but it eventually healed. I only have issues now when writing books, since I often set myself a daily word target and that extra load seems to just add to overall strain.

davidfactorial 5y ago

The best thing I ever did for my hands was putting ctrl to the left of the spacebar where alt usually is. I hit it with my left thumb. I never have to contort my wrists. And it works across all programs, not just vim/emacs. Capslock is still using the pinky. I also switched to Dvorak and put backspace on Capslock, which I think also helped but might be diminishing returns. But I still really like ctrl on alt for my single best ergonomics tweak.

adityaathalye 5y ago

I don't have RSI, but I've felt strains and transient pains from time to time after hyperfocus computering. For me three things help a lot, to keep things "normal". 1. Avoid typing in the first place (seriously, avoiding the "Repetitive" bit is useful). Lots of typing stuff for me is thinking / revision stuff. So I do that in my head or on paper / whiteboard. 2. Put Ctrl under my thumbs as the lord intended https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard so no Emacs Pinky. 3. Use chording for moving around / yank / kill etc. I also use Vim, but separately. Maybe EVIL will give similar results. But "methods to not need to type" category of stuff is probably the main thing for me. Also as some others note, "using body and strenghtening it" category of stuff is also fundamental to my, ah, process. IMHO strain injuries are rooted in mechanical imbalance as much as they are rooted in overuse. (Edit: added more detail, clarifications.)