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I am one of those people who had one view before a youtube video and another view after. We had cats when I was a kid, and I would observe that cats are very g

I am one of those people who had one view before a youtube video and another view after. We had cats when I was a kid, and I would observe that cats are very good at tracking prey, at opening doors or at getting humans to open them, at figuring out who is the boss, and at bearing very, very long term grudges, but otherwise they operate in a system where the world revolves around them (apparently quite literally in terms of how they map the world). This utility-focussed view of the world means they always get fed, but it also leads them to get stuck when exploring -- never paying attention to the fact that the neighbour's garage door does not just open, it also closes, for example! So I have tended to see them as well-optimised, intelligent, but not necessarily "bright". But the cat-mirror-ears video -- where a cat sees a reflection in a mirror, apparently understands that it is its own reflection and then... realises it has ears... that changed my mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akE2Sgg8hI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akE2Sgg8hI8 There is another "cat theory of mind" video where a mother cat purposefully and deliberately retrieves an object its kitten wants to play with, that scientists have talked about on twitter, but I can't find it. A friend of mine has a cat that learned to play fetch as a kitten and never stopped playing. So unusual.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
Incidentally the greatest moment in this video is not the "oh... that's what those are" moment, looking in the mirror. The greatest moment is the head-turn and the wide-eyed look on her face as she is sitting down. Like: "oh this changes everything".
- agumonkey 5y ago
  "How am I gonna tell the others.."
unixhero 5y ago
Does this self awareness mean cats have evolved now? Does this hold any consequence? Genuinely curious. I did not study any biology, so I don't know where this leads us.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  I don't know. But after twenty years of cats around me as a kid, that video never ceases to confound me. Because I've only ever seen cats confused, agitated or completely avoidant around mirrors. I'd always assumed the avoidant thing was, you know, "don't look at the mirror cat and it won't look at me, and we won't have to have the fight where nobody wins". But the ears video makes me wonder if cats don't look at mirrors because they can't quite process the implications.
  - t-3 5y ago
    My cats like mirrors? They use them to look at themselves and around corners while stalking each other. I don't think they particularly like being seen in mirrors any more than being seen normally though (which makes sense for small, specialized, ambush predators in the middle of the food chain).
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      Make videos of this. There really is a conventional scientific view that cats are not capable of passing typical mirror-related self-awareness tests. But it strikes me that the problem might be that the tests just aren't designed to test cats.
      - stephencanon 5y ago
        Every cat we’ve ever had very clearly understood mirrors. If that’s really the conventional view of scientists in the field, that’s basically willful ignorance.
        hiq 5y ago
        Should be simple enough to prove, here is the test to pass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
heresie-dabord 5y ago
Hunters are alert to movement -- as you say, a cat is optimised for certain activities. They do also have strong proprioception. "That's my leg" or "that's my ear" seems a reasonable discovery for a cat. I doubt that there was a deep existential discovery because it happened in a mirror. Of course, pets of a species will vary in ability, that's only normal variation. We love them because they are simple, pretty, calming, and sometimes even helpful. The animals that we love less, we tend to eat. There's an obvious cognitive limit compared to humans. The theory of mind in humans conjures intentionality everywhere. Despite the (sometimes wildly) erroneous notions that this can produce, there is value in cooperation. Assuming intentionality has been an evolutionary advantage for our species. Our species domesticated cattle, horses, and dogs because we have what we call "empathy". It's our mind at work building assumptions about the other. It doesn't take much for the human mind to start imagining intentionality and companionship. Jesse Bering [1] offers the example of the well-known film, The Red Balloon, in which a simple balloon becomes a little boy's companion. https://slate.com/technology/2011/02/theory-of-mind-and-the-belief-in-god.html https://slate.com/technology/2011/02/theory-of-mind-and-the-... Humans love their pets and often project human cognition onto them. It's a human thing. People often project traits onto their children as well. Pets usually avoid some of the worst effects of this projection. ^_^ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Bering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Bering
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > "That's my leg" or "that's my ear" seems a reasonable discovery for a cat. I doubt that there was a deep existential discovery because it happened in a mirror. It does, except that mirrors are not truly a natural phenomenon (most animals, contrary to literature, never really see their reflection in the water, only a shadow). So there is a chance that something more fundamental and novel is going on in the cat's mind. And in most people's experiences and the view of science, cats do not appear to ever understand it is them in the mirror, whereas other animals (some crows for example) definitely do. Of course cats know they have ears in the sense that they can touch them themselves. And they know other cats have ears because they can observe them. The question is whether they understand that their ears are the same concept as other cats' ears. This cat appears very clearly to be learning that, in real time. Whereas other cats don't ever do this in mirrors. They try to reach the cat in the mirror, they try to outpace it, they try to attack it. They don't usually look in the mirror and then touch their own heads or bodies, and they are not known to be able to pass the mirror dot test, where only understanding that the reflection is actually _them_ should allow them to pass. This cat looks very much like it could pass the mirror-dot test, and that could be of interest to science. (Though given how sensitive cats are to things placed on their bodies, how routinely they clean their own faces, and the presence of whiskers on their face, it may actually be impossible to apply the mirror dot test in a way that is meaningful)
shagie 5y ago
> There is another "cat theory of mind" video where a mother cat purposefully and deliberately retrieves an object its kitten wants to play with, that scientists have talked about on twitter, but I can't find it. You are likely thinking of https://youtu.be/whVMP6BqcqU https://youtu.be/whVMP6BqcqU
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  I am! Thank you! This is a very, very interesting video. There are other interpretations (that it is for example mum/dad's favourite toy too for example). But it is worthy of discussion.
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    It seems fairly cut and dry.
  - shagie 5y ago
    I would contend that cats are able to establish a mental model of another animal in their mind and act upon it. In particular, when hunting a mouse, the cat is thinking about what the mouse is thinking. The "if I hide here, the mouse won't be able to see me when it leaves its mouse hole." That establishing of a model of another animal's mind in their own mind is likely a key part of intelligence.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      > That establishing of a model of another animal's mind in their own mind is likely a key part of intelligence. Yes -- this is literally "theory of mind", as I understand it. But the really striking thing is that this sort of stuff you're talking about does not typically count towards theory of mind among scientists. I mean they would make the counterargument that the cat catching the mouse might simply be learning through reinforcement that relying on their hearing is effectively more successful than relying on both sight and hearing, and that being unable to see the mouse and focussing on the sound leads to better strategies; it's possible the cat does not need to understand that they are invisible to the mouse. And it is certainly possible for a cat to catch a mouse through long observation of its behaviours without engaging in theory of mind. But then you watch cats play with each other (or the hilarious videos of cats sneaking up on observers and then freezing) and it's hard to believe they don't understand this.
goodpoint 5y ago
> apparently understands that it is its own reflection No, cats do not recognize themselves in mirrors. Very few animals do. It's just very easy for us to see all sort of human behaviors in our pets.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > No, cats do not recognize themselves in mirrors. Very few animals do. That is certainly the conventional belief. But that conventional belief is founded on a single fundamental test (the mirror-dot test) that may simply be difficult to apply to cats. Other animals were thought not to be able to recognise themselves until they passed that test. When they pass the test, we say that animals of that species can recognise themselves in the mirror. It's a single observation. So the question then becomes: are we so sure about that test? If you have not watched the video, watch it a few times. The only other really sensible explanation is that the cat only gets this far: The mirror cat does everything I do! Every time! I know the thing on the wall has the mirror cat in. I can only see the mirror cat's ears... Ears are interesting. Do my ears look like that? Since the mirror cat matches my every movement, that must be what my ears look like. So if I rub my paws on my ears, and watch the mirror cat copy me, I should be able to confirm that interpretation... The cat is definitely performing a slow, precise movement in order to watch what happens in the mirror. She sits up to make sure she can see it, before she does it. (She doesn't need to sit up to clean her own ears without looking). It's far too deliberate and studied; we know what cats look like when they are concentrating on movement. That she comes up short of realising that the mirror cat is herself is definitely plausible. But even then it is demonstrating an enhanced theory of mind, because it involves predicting that the mirror cat's actions will always match her actions, that this can be used to test an idea, and that conclusions can be drawn about what she must look like when doing the same actions. At some point, we have to accept that the idea that we are wrongly projecting our unique intelligence onto other animals is actually pretty arrogant.
- jsz0 5y ago
  I've had many cats over the years. They absolutely do understand reflections. I've watched them learning it in real time. Kittens will often try to get behind the mirror, play with the reflection, etc and over time most of them learn it's a reflection or at least not another cat and lose interest. I've frequently seen cats spot movement behind them in a mirror and turn around to investigate further. Makes perfect sense to me considering animals have been seeing their reflections in water for millions of years. It's not like they just recently learned what a reflection is.
ddingus 5y ago
Wow. Yeah, that video is thought provoking.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

Incidentally the greatest moment in this video is not the "oh... that's what those are" moment, looking in the mirror. The greatest moment is the head-turn and the wide-eyed look on her face as she is sitting down. Like: "oh this changes everything".

agumonkey 5y ago
"How am I gonna tell the others.."

unixhero 5y ago

Does this self awareness mean cats have evolved now? Does this hold any consequence? Genuinely curious. I did not study any biology, so I don't know where this leads us.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
I don't know. But after twenty years of cats around me as a kid, that video never ceases to confound me. Because I've only ever seen cats confused, agitated or completely avoidant around mirrors. I'd always assumed the avoidant thing was, you know, "don't look at the mirror cat and it won't look at me, and we won't have to have the fight where nobody wins". But the ears video makes me wonder if cats don't look at mirrors because they can't quite process the implications.
- t-3 5y ago
  My cats like mirrors? They use them to look at themselves and around corners while stalking each other. I don't think they particularly like being seen in mirrors any more than being seen normally though (which makes sense for small, specialized, ambush predators in the middle of the food chain).
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    Make videos of this. There really is a conventional scientific view that cats are not capable of passing typical mirror-related self-awareness tests. But it strikes me that the problem might be that the tests just aren't designed to test cats.
    - stephencanon 5y ago
      Every cat we’ve ever had very clearly understood mirrors. If that’s really the conventional view of scientists in the field, that’s basically willful ignorance.
      - hiq 5y ago
        Should be simple enough to prove, here is the test to pass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
      - unfocussed_mike 5y ago

heresie-dabord 5y ago

Hunters are alert to movement -- as you say, a cat is optimised for certain activities. They do also have strong proprioception. "That's my leg" or "that's my ear" seems a reasonable discovery for a cat. I doubt that there was a deep existential discovery because it happened in a mirror. Of course, pets of a species will vary in ability, that's only normal variation. We love them because they are simple, pretty, calming, and sometimes even helpful. The animals that we love less, we tend to eat. There's an obvious cognitive limit compared to humans. The theory of mind in humans conjures intentionality everywhere. Despite the (sometimes wildly) erroneous notions that this can produce, there is value in cooperation. Assuming intentionality has been an evolutionary advantage for our species. Our species domesticated cattle, horses, and dogs because we have what we call "empathy". It's our mind at work building assumptions about the other. It doesn't take much for the human mind to start imagining intentionality and companionship. Jesse Bering [1] offers the example of the well-known film, The Red Balloon, in which a simple balloon becomes a little boy's companion. https://slate.com/technology/2011/02/theory-of-mind-and-the-belief-in-god.html https://slate.com/technology/2011/02/theory-of-mind-and-the-... Humans love their pets and often project human cognition onto them. It's a human thing. People often project traits onto their children as well. Pets usually avoid some of the worst effects of this projection. ^_^ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Bering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Bering

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> "That's my leg" or "that's my ear" seems a reasonable discovery for a cat. I doubt that there was a deep existential discovery because it happened in a mirror. It does, except that mirrors are not truly a natural phenomenon (most animals, contrary to literature, never really see their reflection in the water, only a shadow). So there is a chance that something more fundamental and novel is going on in the cat's mind. And in most people's experiences and the view of science, cats do not appear to ever understand it is them in the mirror, whereas other animals (some crows for example) definitely do. Of course cats know they have ears in the sense that they can touch them themselves. And they know other cats have ears because they can observe them. The question is whether they understand that their ears are the same concept as other cats' ears. This cat appears very clearly to be learning that, in real time. Whereas other cats don't ever do this in mirrors. They try to reach the cat in the mirror, they try to outpace it, they try to attack it. They don't usually look in the mirror and then touch their own heads or bodies, and they are not known to be able to pass the mirror dot test, where only understanding that the reflection is actually _them_ should allow them to pass. This cat looks very much like it could pass the mirror-dot test, and that could be of interest to science. (Though given how sensitive cats are to things placed on their bodies, how routinely they clean their own faces, and the presence of whiskers on their face, it may actually be impossible to apply the mirror dot test in a way that is meaningful)

shagie 5y ago

> There is another "cat theory of mind" video where a mother cat purposefully and deliberately retrieves an object its kitten wants to play with, that scientists have talked about on twitter, but I can't find it. You are likely thinking of https://youtu.be/whVMP6BqcqU https://youtu.be/whVMP6BqcqU

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
I am! Thank you! This is a very, very interesting video. There are other interpretations (that it is for example mum/dad's favourite toy too for example). But it is worthy of discussion.
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  It seems fairly cut and dry.
- shagie 5y ago
  I would contend that cats are able to establish a mental model of another animal in their mind and act upon it. In particular, when hunting a mouse, the cat is thinking about what the mouse is thinking. The "if I hide here, the mouse won't be able to see me when it leaves its mouse hole." That establishing of a model of another animal's mind in their own mind is likely a key part of intelligence.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    > That establishing of a model of another animal's mind in their own mind is likely a key part of intelligence. Yes -- this is literally "theory of mind", as I understand it. But the really striking thing is that this sort of stuff you're talking about does not typically count towards theory of mind among scientists. I mean they would make the counterargument that the cat catching the mouse might simply be learning through reinforcement that relying on their hearing is effectively more successful than relying on both sight and hearing, and that being unable to see the mouse and focussing on the sound leads to better strategies; it's possible the cat does not need to understand that they are invisible to the mouse. And it is certainly possible for a cat to catch a mouse through long observation of its behaviours without engaging in theory of mind. But then you watch cats play with each other (or the hilarious videos of cats sneaking up on observers and then freezing) and it's hard to believe they don't understand this.

goodpoint 5y ago

> apparently understands that it is its own reflection No, cats do not recognize themselves in mirrors. Very few animals do. It's just very easy for us to see all sort of human behaviors in our pets.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> No, cats do not recognize themselves in mirrors. Very few animals do. That is certainly the conventional belief. But that conventional belief is founded on a single fundamental test (the mirror-dot test) that may simply be difficult to apply to cats. Other animals were thought not to be able to recognise themselves until they passed that test. When they pass the test, we say that animals of that species can recognise themselves in the mirror. It's a single observation. So the question then becomes: are we so sure about that test? If you have not watched the video, watch it a few times. The only other really sensible explanation is that the cat only gets this far: The mirror cat does everything I do! Every time! I know the thing on the wall has the mirror cat in. I can only see the mirror cat's ears... Ears are interesting. Do my ears look like that? Since the mirror cat matches my every movement, that must be what my ears look like. So if I rub my paws on my ears, and watch the mirror cat copy me, I should be able to confirm that interpretation... The cat is definitely performing a slow, precise movement in order to watch what happens in the mirror. She sits up to make sure she can see it, before she does it. (She doesn't need to sit up to clean her own ears without looking). It's far too deliberate and studied; we know what cats look like when they are concentrating on movement. That she comes up short of realising that the mirror cat is herself is definitely plausible. But even then it is demonstrating an enhanced theory of mind, because it involves predicting that the mirror cat's actions will always match her actions, that this can be used to test an idea, and that conclusions can be drawn about what she must look like when doing the same actions. At some point, we have to accept that the idea that we are wrongly projecting our unique intelligence onto other animals is actually pretty arrogant.
jsz0 5y ago
I've had many cats over the years. They absolutely do understand reflections. I've watched them learning it in real time. Kittens will often try to get behind the mirror, play with the reflection, etc and over time most of them learn it's a reflection or at least not another cat and lose interest. I've frequently seen cats spot movement behind them in a mirror and turn around to investigate further. Makes perfect sense to me considering animals have been seeing their reflections in water for millions of years. It's not like they just recently learned what a reflection is.

ddingus 5y ago

Wow. Yeah, that video is thought provoking.