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> That senior engineer should be fired, immediately. That's inexcusable. I don't care how needy a junior engineer is, or how many times you've shown them someth

> That senior engineer should be fired, immediately. That's inexcusable. I don't care how needy a junior engineer is, or how many times you've shown them something. You show them again, teach them how to find the documentation, and do everything you can to make it so that they don't need the help. I will be honest if on month 9 someone asks me how to stick some code onto the integration test platform for the 10th time I am going to make a snarky comment. Similarly, if on month 6 someone asked me how to log time or make a jira ticket I would probably be of the opinion that we are pretty far along for that kind of basic workflow not to be known. There are limits to how long a new employee gets to be useless at everything - so without knowing which process we are talking about I would probably hold off on that firing button

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
The /r/relationships phenomena - with little to no context, divorce or ending the relationship is the only path forward. Imagine thinking a company is going to fire potentially high value senior engineers for getting frustrated with junior engineers. Do the seniors need to chill? Sure. Fired? Come'on.
- lambo4bkfast 5y ago
  Yup. The guy lost all credibility when he said that.
lkxijlewlf 5y ago
>I will be honest if on month 9 someone asks me how to stick some code onto the integration test platform for the 10th time I am going to make a snarky comment. I feel ya. I've been there. But now what I do instead is sit down with them and have them work up a document with screenshots (if necessary). We then go back through the process using the document as a guide to fix any mistakes. Bonus: Everyone can use the document.
- kshacker 5y ago
  I have done this, but sometimes the issues are systematic. My manager wants junior coaching to be done only some ways and those ways are not conducible to healthy mentoring. And he does ask for these screenshots but he is satisfied as long as screenshots are there, but does not care for their quality. And the next time the junior needs to re-use the same screen flow but from step 3 instead of step 1, and well, it is not pleasant. I would rather spend time 9 times, or 10 times, and make sure the person understands it. However, if the solution is screenshot from 1st attempt itself, I am sorry by the time we get to the 9th version, I am at my limit both with the junior and the manager.
GeneralMayhem 5y ago
I was assuming OP wasn't that clueless - but even if they are (and I know there are people like that, and I get the frustration), snapping at the junior person directly is really counterproductive. Especially in the context of the rest of OP's situation, it's clear that they're not getting any structured instruction, and if you throw a lot of stuff at someone in a haphazard way they're not going to retain it. My current job had a really disorganized onboarding process, and 18 months later I do occasionally still have to ask for reminders about basic Jira processes or test/deploy setups that I don't use every day. My response would be to answer the question when they ask it, then wait for a calmer time and ask the process questions if you need to (or better yet, ask the junior employee's manager first): * "Hey, it feels like we've been through X a few times now. I'd rather you ask if it's not clear, but is there something that isn't clicking for you in my explanation?" * "I was a little surprised when you asked me about X, because that's something that we usually cover in first-week or first-month onboarding. Was it not covered then? Is there something unclear in the documentation from then?"
matthewowen 5y ago
I wouldn’t make a _snarky_ comment not would I “snap”, but if 9 months in something hasn’t stuck that should have, I would absolutely communicate that (as well as helping with the problem). As in “here’s how you flerble the foobaz, but FYI I’m a little concerned that this isn’t something you’re comfortable doing by yourself yet”. Pretending that underperformance is OK doesn’t help people - it’s the kind of thing that leads to them being put on PIP “out of the blue”.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

The /r/relationships phenomena - with little to no context, divorce or ending the relationship is the only path forward. Imagine thinking a company is going to fire potentially high value senior engineers for getting frustrated with junior engineers. Do the seniors need to chill? Sure. Fired? Come'on.

lambo4bkfast 5y ago
Yup. The guy lost all credibility when he said that.

lkxijlewlf 5y ago

>I will be honest if on month 9 someone asks me how to stick some code onto the integration test platform for the 10th time I am going to make a snarky comment. I feel ya. I've been there. But now what I do instead is sit down with them and have them work up a document with screenshots (if necessary). We then go back through the process using the document as a guide to fix any mistakes. Bonus: Everyone can use the document.

kshacker 5y ago
I have done this, but sometimes the issues are systematic. My manager wants junior coaching to be done only some ways and those ways are not conducible to healthy mentoring. And he does ask for these screenshots but he is satisfied as long as screenshots are there, but does not care for their quality. And the next time the junior needs to re-use the same screen flow but from step 3 instead of step 1, and well, it is not pleasant. I would rather spend time 9 times, or 10 times, and make sure the person understands it. However, if the solution is screenshot from 1st attempt itself, I am sorry by the time we get to the 9th version, I am at my limit both with the junior and the manager.

GeneralMayhem 5y ago

I was assuming OP wasn't that clueless - but even if they are (and I know there are people like that, and I get the frustration), snapping at the junior person directly is really counterproductive. Especially in the context of the rest of OP's situation, it's clear that they're not getting any structured instruction, and if you throw a lot of stuff at someone in a haphazard way they're not going to retain it. My current job had a really disorganized onboarding process, and 18 months later I do occasionally still have to ask for reminders about basic Jira processes or test/deploy setups that I don't use every day. My response would be to answer the question when they ask it, then wait for a calmer time and ask the process questions if you need to (or better yet, ask the junior employee's manager first): * "Hey, it feels like we've been through X a few times now. I'd rather you ask if it's not clear, but is there something that isn't clicking for you in my explanation?" * "I was a little surprised when you asked me about X, because that's something that we usually cover in first-week or first-month onboarding. Was it not covered then? Is there something unclear in the documentation from then?"

matthewowen 5y ago

I wouldn’t make a _snarky_ comment not would I “snap”, but if 9 months in something hasn’t stuck that should have, I would absolutely communicate that (as well as helping with the problem). As in “here’s how you flerble the foobaz, but FYI I’m a little concerned that this isn’t something you’re comfortable doing by yourself yet”. Pretending that underperformance is OK doesn’t help people - it’s the kind of thing that leads to them being put on PIP “out of the blue”.