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I cannot speak for other countries but in Ukraine people started protesting by their own will. To allege that it was due to foreign influence is to deny Ukraini

by NoPie 5y ago

I cannot speak for other countries but in Ukraine people started protesting by their own will. To allege that it was due to foreign influence is to deny Ukrainians of their agency. Let's not believe this Russian propaganda that Ukraine is not a real country and its people cannot decide by themselves.

unmole 5y ago
> Ukraine people started protesting by their own will. To allege that it was due to foreign influence is to deny Ukrainians of their agency. Do you extend the same line of thinking to separatists in Crimea and Donbass?
- dotopotoro 5y ago
  Even if it were grass root movement (could be possible, though somewhat doubtful) in donbas and crimea, they didn’t start with peaceful protest demanding early election or greater autonomy or something democratic. There goal clearly was to chip away the territory from ukrain.
  - unmole 5y ago
    The peaceful protests for closer ties to the EU didn't achieve anything. And the democratically elected president was ousted by force. It's not hard to imagine that those opposed to the new regime would see armed insurrection as the logical means of achieving their aims.
    - dotopotoro 5y ago
      “Yanukovic was ousted by force”, does not describe the situation. Yanukovic tried silencing protesters using force, but they didn’t surrender.
      - unmole 5y ago
        "Yanukovych's Berkut violently tried to put down peaceful protests" and "Violent protests ousted Yanukovych by force" are both true. For some reason you want to ignore the fact that the peaceful protests failed and then escalated to violent retaliation.
- codedokode 5y ago
  Regarding Crimea and Donbass, as far as I am aware there were no attempts to overthrow the government by local population before Russian military seized control of government buildings. So the difference is clear: - in Kyiv, everything started with protests that the government tried to suppress for several months - in Crimea everything started with Russian military taking control over the peninsula which is a foreign intervention, exactly the type that commenters above try to attribute to USA. But there were no USA soldiers on Maidan, and there were Russian soldiers in Crimea and Donbass.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > as far as I am aware there were no attempts to overthrow the government by local population The Guardian says otherwise: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-secession-russian-crimea https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis...
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      This article talks about a regular protest. No overthrow attempts were made
      - xg15 5y ago
        How is this relevant in deciding whether a protest was caused by outside manipulation vs free will of the people?
        lostmsu 5y ago
        Personally, I don't care about outside manipulation, unless it is either achieved by spreading misinformation, or by military force. Second, the parent comments were explicitly referring to overthrow.

by NoPie 5y ago

unmole 5y ago

> Ukraine people started protesting by their own will. To allege that it was due to foreign influence is to deny Ukrainians of their agency. Do you extend the same line of thinking to separatists in Crimea and Donbass?

dotopotoro 5y ago
Even if it were grass root movement (could be possible, though somewhat doubtful) in donbas and crimea, they didn’t start with peaceful protest demanding early election or greater autonomy or something democratic. There goal clearly was to chip away the territory from ukrain.
- unmole 5y ago
  The peaceful protests for closer ties to the EU didn't achieve anything. And the democratically elected president was ousted by force. It's not hard to imagine that those opposed to the new regime would see armed insurrection as the logical means of achieving their aims.
  - dotopotoro 5y ago
    “Yanukovic was ousted by force”, does not describe the situation. Yanukovic tried silencing protesters using force, but they didn’t surrender.
    - unmole 5y ago
      "Yanukovych's Berkut violently tried to put down peaceful protests" and "Violent protests ousted Yanukovych by force" are both true. For some reason you want to ignore the fact that the peaceful protests failed and then escalated to violent retaliation.
codedokode 5y ago
Regarding Crimea and Donbass, as far as I am aware there were no attempts to overthrow the government by local population before Russian military seized control of government buildings. So the difference is clear: - in Kyiv, everything started with protests that the government tried to suppress for several months - in Crimea everything started with Russian military taking control over the peninsula which is a foreign intervention, exactly the type that commenters above try to attribute to USA. But there were no USA soldiers on Maidan, and there were Russian soldiers in Crimea and Donbass.
- unmole 5y ago
  > as far as I am aware there were no attempts to overthrow the government by local population The Guardian says otherwise: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-secession-russian-crimea https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis...
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    This article talks about a regular protest. No overthrow attempts were made
    - xg15 5y ago
      How is this relevant in deciding whether a protest was caused by outside manipulation vs free will of the people?
      - lostmsu 5y ago
        Personally, I don't care about outside manipulation, unless it is either achieved by spreading misinformation, or by military force. Second, the parent comments were explicitly referring to overthrow.