7 ms·

Why do you ask? Do you believe invading militaries should not be opposed? Or do you see the Russian military as the good guy here?

DocTomoe 4y ago
He is pointing out hypocrisy. Why is there a moral imperative to cripple your own economy because country A invaded country B, when you did not do so the 20 times country C did the same and worse?
- 0dayz 4y ago
  If so why wasn't Russia sanctioning the USA for iraq? And instead gave them the greenlight?
  - BlinkenBlinken 4y ago
    Probably because they have different morals.
- jamesmishra 4y ago
  From your perspective, is the Russian military doing a good thing or a bad thing? If they are doing something bad, should they avoid punishment?
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    "Good" and "bad" are unhelpful, moralistic categories to gauge this kind of thing. Morals are culture- and society-specific. If I was a Raytheon stockholder, I would be ecstatic right now and would cheer the Russians on to keep kindling that flame. If I lived in Ukraine, I would have a very different opinion. So, which categories can we apply? In the end, much like standard crime, there can be only one: Are they following the standards set by international law, or are they not? And that we cannot honestly answer as of now. Consider these basic questions: 1. Is the Russian military responsible for the decision to wage what we in the west consider a "war of aggression" against Ukraine? To parse that question lightly more pointed: Has every member of the Russian forces currently engaged in the Ukraine theatre signed off the decision to invade? 2. Is the Russian military collectively responsible for any action the Russian military and/or the Russian political leadership takes? 3. Can we be certain that all the information we get is truthful, especially when it comes to information that would suggest Russian military war crimes? 4. Which amount of civilian casualties is "acceptable" before it becomes a punishable war crime? When "we" kill civilians, "we" call it "collateral damage". At which point does collateral damage become a war crime? 5. Is the Ukraine war illegitimate? When considering this question, please take into account that we may have several gaps in our understanding of the situation, and that we tend to wave away Russian sources as "enemy propaganda". If they are breaking international law, the decision makers in the Russian political leadership and military should be judged and potentially punished by an international court of law. Unfortunately, that only works as long as they are a member of that court (or are thoroughly defeated), and Russia isn't - much like the US - (and is unlikely to be defeated).
    - jamesmishra 4y ago
      You would tell the Russians to continue the genocide?
      - beckman466 4y ago
        > You would tell the Russians to continue the genocide? you would tell the Americans to continue the bombing in Yemen?
        jamesmishra 4y ago
        Yes.
    - krzyk 4y ago
      Nice, now I know why west waited with attack on Germany in September 1939. Because of people like you, with moral relativism.
      - drekk 4y ago
        This seems like pretty useless ad-hominem. The US only got involved because of Pearl Harbor. At the time Long Island was "the eugenics capital of the world". The Third Reich got their inspiration from the US, although they thought the one drop rule went too far. Heck, in 1939 there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Park. Do you think it was moral relativists going to that rally? And truly the Nazis basically won WW2 given Operation Paperclip and all the massacres the US oversaw afterwards in Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, etc. Sure we might not speaking German or wearing swastikas, but the American Eagle is currently financing genocide (let's use Yemen as the example here) and the only media attention we can seem to get is for Ukraine because their aggressor is our geopolitical enemy I'm all for the sanctions against Russia before someone accuses me of whataboutism. However, I would like to see stronger international standards, as well as an ICC joined by the US. That requires the US to allow for international oversight and not have a Hague invasion clause. Are Americans willing to be held to the same standard as their enemies? If not just say might makes right and remove this pretense that it's about war crimes or human rights
- ilammy 4y ago
  Probably because country U would certainly not go invading countries P, L, E, or even G or F given chance, after it's done invading the country I.
- IAmEveryone 4y ago
  I vehemently disagree with the (second) invasion of Iraq, but pretending it's the same to step in when some dictator has torture as a favorite hobby as it is to invade a peaceful and happy democracy is taking the cynicism a bit too far. Afghanistan & the 1990 Iraqi war were entirely legitimate for obvious reasons.
  - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
    > obvious reasons. "I don't like those countries and they're angry with me". I guess that puts any invasion as justifiable.
    - IAmEveryone 4y ago
      Aehm, no! Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11, since the ruling Taliban had been accomodating and supporting Al Quaeda. The first (or second, depending on how you're counting) Gulf War started with Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait.
- krzyk 4y ago
  Have you been to Russia? Have you seen how they are pumped with propaganda? How every opposition voice has to worry that either they'll get arrested or killed by a "random" person when they go home. Try that in US, what will happen? Nothing. Russia (and China) are big countries and dangerous ones because ruled not by the rule of law but by a will of rulers and oligarchs. And now we have opportunity to stop at least one of them.
  - beckman466 4y ago
    > ...Russia? Have you seen how they are pumped with propaganda? have you been to the US and/or UK? what do you make of the capitalist owned and capitalist controlled media? > Russia (and China) are big countries and dangerous ones because ruled not by the rule of law but by a will of rulers and oligarchs. ah cool, so they don't have weird things like FISA courts and a huge national security apparatus (sort of like this CIA thing), and army, which together coups countries and assassinates leaders? [1] > And now we have opportunity to stop at least one of them. who is this 'we' you speak of? [2] [1] https://jacobinmag.com/2020/11/washington-bullets-cia-coups-assassinations-evo-morales https://jacobinmag.com/2020/11/washington-bullets-cia-coups-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRh925Is_1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRh925Is_1U
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      “have you been to the US and/or UK? what do you make of the capitalist owned and capitalist controlled media?” You may be surprised to learn how irrelevant the corporate media is now, very low viewership counts, and a flourishing alternative media ecosystem, where everyone can believe what they want. This diversity of information sources has its echo-chamber downside, but no one is being imprisoned because of their views like in Russia or China.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      Yes, I remember last time I posted something on the internet that disagreed with what corporate media was saying and then the secret police came to beat me and warn me that my family members may disappear.
- belorn 4y ago
  The reasons to keep Russians wars in check has more to do than with morality. The threat that Russia will invade other nearby countries for lebensraum is currently feeling much more real for all countries bordering Russia. The US is unlikely to invade Poland in order to displace the polish people with Americans. To some degree a war over oil resources feel much less threatening to countries than a war for lebensraum, especially for countries which don't have a lot of oil resources. Every nation however has land, and thus every nation is a target when a country like Russia is after territory. This is a big reason why a lot of countries around Russia is currently increasing their military budgets, loosing more money on that then any losses to the economy from not buying conflict resources from Russia. If you are pumping your money into the military, it makes economical sense to not fund the military threat you are defending against.
crossroadsguy 4y ago
GP asks because when it’s geo-frickin-politics it’s really not - Uo is calling R bad, I must also call R bad, otherwise Uo will call I bad as well. Because Uo calling I bad - is less bad for I - than R pissed off with I. Because R and I have supported each other throughout and Uo simply can not be trusted and Uo has repeatedly proved that it cannot be trusted. In fact there’s a good chance Uo as well might call I bad after I has called R bad and had lost a long time ally and eventually has been left alone. And here people make it look like a weekend outing with some pals - hey, you should have called Jack out because he unnecessarily yelled at me! Yeah! And because there’s clear difference of outrage when brown, yellow, black lives are bombed into oblivion, burnt into tar, whisked away into nothingness from sovereign territories without any accountability and repercussions compared to when the war is right inside Europe. Yeah, that’s real. But you all can’t see that. Why? Because it has been given a catchy name “Global War on Terror”? By the way, this is not a thing of past. It is still going on. Full throttle. Others see that. Have been seeing for decades. Have seen the f..ing cold war and its farce as well. So why GP asks? That’s why GP asks that’s everybody is bad here and calling Russia out bad will mean calling others’ actions/deeds good while possibly shooting themselves in the foot. > Do you believe invading militaries should not be opposed? Yes, should be. “Every” invading army should be. Every! Colonial powers should pay. Aggressors should atone, reimburse. In an ideal utopia inhabited only by pure flower children and silver snowflakes all this would happen maybe. Not your or someone’s selective outrage! Bit does it happen? No. In the real world that doesn’t happen, it hasn’t happened, and hence many countries and entities are “not stupid enough” to catch a flying arrow in someone else’s yard in their own hinds. However heinous or a bad bully that archer is. Because as I said that’s the better of two bad options for many.
- jamesmishra 4y ago
  So do you support taking action against the Russian military's genocide or not?
  - beckman466 4y ago
    > So do you support taking action against the Russian military's genocide or not? of course. and OP answered with the same answer. please stop strawmanning, the joke is on you for not accepting the evidence. try to open your eyes to the murderous hypocrisy and deep-rooted racism of Global North/Western imperialism. https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/jakarta-method-vincent-bevins-indonesia-anticommunism https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/jakarta-method-vincent-bevins...

DocTomoe 4y ago

He is pointing out hypocrisy. Why is there a moral imperative to cripple your own economy because country A invaded country B, when you did not do so the 20 times country C did the same and worse?

0dayz 4y ago
If so why wasn't Russia sanctioning the USA for iraq? And instead gave them the greenlight?
- BlinkenBlinken 4y ago
  Probably because they have different morals.
jamesmishra 4y ago
From your perspective, is the Russian military doing a good thing or a bad thing? If they are doing something bad, should they avoid punishment?
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  "Good" and "bad" are unhelpful, moralistic categories to gauge this kind of thing. Morals are culture- and society-specific. If I was a Raytheon stockholder, I would be ecstatic right now and would cheer the Russians on to keep kindling that flame. If I lived in Ukraine, I would have a very different opinion. So, which categories can we apply? In the end, much like standard crime, there can be only one: Are they following the standards set by international law, or are they not? And that we cannot honestly answer as of now. Consider these basic questions: 1. Is the Russian military responsible for the decision to wage what we in the west consider a "war of aggression" against Ukraine? To parse that question lightly more pointed: Has every member of the Russian forces currently engaged in the Ukraine theatre signed off the decision to invade? 2. Is the Russian military collectively responsible for any action the Russian military and/or the Russian political leadership takes? 3. Can we be certain that all the information we get is truthful, especially when it comes to information that would suggest Russian military war crimes? 4. Which amount of civilian casualties is "acceptable" before it becomes a punishable war crime? When "we" kill civilians, "we" call it "collateral damage". At which point does collateral damage become a war crime? 5. Is the Ukraine war illegitimate? When considering this question, please take into account that we may have several gaps in our understanding of the situation, and that we tend to wave away Russian sources as "enemy propaganda". If they are breaking international law, the decision makers in the Russian political leadership and military should be judged and potentially punished by an international court of law. Unfortunately, that only works as long as they are a member of that court (or are thoroughly defeated), and Russia isn't - much like the US - (and is unlikely to be defeated).
  - jamesmishra 4y ago
    You would tell the Russians to continue the genocide?
    - beckman466 4y ago
      > You would tell the Russians to continue the genocide? you would tell the Americans to continue the bombing in Yemen?
      - jamesmishra 4y ago
        Yes.
  - krzyk 4y ago
    Nice, now I know why west waited with attack on Germany in September 1939. Because of people like you, with moral relativism.
    - drekk 4y ago
      This seems like pretty useless ad-hominem. The US only got involved because of Pearl Harbor. At the time Long Island was "the eugenics capital of the world". The Third Reich got their inspiration from the US, although they thought the one drop rule went too far. Heck, in 1939 there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Park. Do you think it was moral relativists going to that rally? And truly the Nazis basically won WW2 given Operation Paperclip and all the massacres the US oversaw afterwards in Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, etc. Sure we might not speaking German or wearing swastikas, but the American Eagle is currently financing genocide (let's use Yemen as the example here) and the only media attention we can seem to get is for Ukraine because their aggressor is our geopolitical enemy I'm all for the sanctions against Russia before someone accuses me of whataboutism. However, I would like to see stronger international standards, as well as an ICC joined by the US. That requires the US to allow for international oversight and not have a Hague invasion clause. Are Americans willing to be held to the same standard as their enemies? If not just say might makes right and remove this pretense that it's about war crimes or human rights
ilammy 4y ago
Probably because country U would certainly not go invading countries P, L, E, or even G or F given chance, after it's done invading the country I.
IAmEveryone 4y ago
I vehemently disagree with the (second) invasion of Iraq, but pretending it's the same to step in when some dictator has torture as a favorite hobby as it is to invade a peaceful and happy democracy is taking the cynicism a bit too far. Afghanistan & the 1990 Iraqi war were entirely legitimate for obvious reasons.
- ElectricalUnion 4y ago
  > obvious reasons. "I don't like those countries and they're angry with me". I guess that puts any invasion as justifiable.
  - IAmEveryone 4y ago
    Aehm, no! Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11, since the ruling Taliban had been accomodating and supporting Al Quaeda. The first (or second, depending on how you're counting) Gulf War started with Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait.
krzyk 4y ago
Have you been to Russia? Have you seen how they are pumped with propaganda? How every opposition voice has to worry that either they'll get arrested or killed by a "random" person when they go home. Try that in US, what will happen? Nothing. Russia (and China) are big countries and dangerous ones because ruled not by the rule of law but by a will of rulers and oligarchs. And now we have opportunity to stop at least one of them.
- beckman466 4y ago
  > ...Russia? Have you seen how they are pumped with propaganda? have you been to the US and/or UK? what do you make of the capitalist owned and capitalist controlled media? > Russia (and China) are big countries and dangerous ones because ruled not by the rule of law but by a will of rulers and oligarchs. ah cool, so they don't have weird things like FISA courts and a huge national security apparatus (sort of like this CIA thing), and army, which together coups countries and assassinates leaders? [1] > And now we have opportunity to stop at least one of them. who is this 'we' you speak of? [2] [1] https://jacobinmag.com/2020/11/washington-bullets-cia-coups-assassinations-evo-morales https://jacobinmag.com/2020/11/washington-bullets-cia-coups-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRh925Is_1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRh925Is_1U
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    “have you been to the US and/or UK? what do you make of the capitalist owned and capitalist controlled media?” You may be surprised to learn how irrelevant the corporate media is now, very low viewership counts, and a flourishing alternative media ecosystem, where everyone can believe what they want. This diversity of information sources has its echo-chamber downside, but no one is being imprisoned because of their views like in Russia or China.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    Yes, I remember last time I posted something on the internet that disagreed with what corporate media was saying and then the secret police came to beat me and warn me that my family members may disappear.
belorn 4y ago
The reasons to keep Russians wars in check has more to do than with morality. The threat that Russia will invade other nearby countries for lebensraum is currently feeling much more real for all countries bordering Russia. The US is unlikely to invade Poland in order to displace the polish people with Americans. To some degree a war over oil resources feel much less threatening to countries than a war for lebensraum, especially for countries which don't have a lot of oil resources. Every nation however has land, and thus every nation is a target when a country like Russia is after territory. This is a big reason why a lot of countries around Russia is currently increasing their military budgets, loosing more money on that then any losses to the economy from not buying conflict resources from Russia. If you are pumping your money into the military, it makes economical sense to not fund the military threat you are defending against.

crossroadsguy 4y ago

GP asks because when it’s geo-frickin-politics it’s really not - Uo is calling R bad, I must also call R bad, otherwise Uo will call I bad as well. Because Uo calling I bad - is less bad for I - than R pissed off with I. Because R and I have supported each other throughout and Uo simply can not be trusted and Uo has repeatedly proved that it cannot be trusted. In fact there’s a good chance Uo as well might call I bad after I has called R bad and had lost a long time ally and eventually has been left alone. And here people make it look like a weekend outing with some pals - hey, you should have called Jack out because he unnecessarily yelled at me! Yeah! And because there’s clear difference of outrage when brown, yellow, black lives are bombed into oblivion, burnt into tar, whisked away into nothingness from sovereign territories without any accountability and repercussions compared to when the war is right inside Europe. Yeah, that’s real. But you all can’t see that. Why? Because it has been given a catchy name “Global War on Terror”? By the way, this is not a thing of past. It is still going on. Full throttle. Others see that. Have been seeing for decades. Have seen the f..ing cold war and its farce as well. So why GP asks? That’s why GP asks that’s everybody is bad here and calling Russia out bad will mean calling others’ actions/deeds good while possibly shooting themselves in the foot. > Do you believe invading militaries should not be opposed? Yes, should be. “Every” invading army should be. Every! Colonial powers should pay. Aggressors should atone, reimburse. In an ideal utopia inhabited only by pure flower children and silver snowflakes all this would happen maybe. Not your or someone’s selective outrage! Bit does it happen? No. In the real world that doesn’t happen, it hasn’t happened, and hence many countries and entities are “not stupid enough” to catch a flying arrow in someone else’s yard in their own hinds. However heinous or a bad bully that archer is. Because as I said that’s the better of two bad options for many.

jamesmishra 4y ago
So do you support taking action against the Russian military's genocide or not?
- beckman466 4y ago
  > So do you support taking action against the Russian military's genocide or not? of course. and OP answered with the same answer. please stop strawmanning, the joke is on you for not accepting the evidence. try to open your eyes to the murderous hypocrisy and deep-rooted racism of Global North/Western imperialism. https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/jakarta-method-vincent-bevins-indonesia-anticommunism https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/jakarta-method-vincent-bevins...