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It's also that Europeans aren't willing to suspend their gas-fuelled comforts.

ricardobayes 4y ago
Well what do you suggest? An 80-year old man in Brussels should freeze to death in their apartment because Russia invaded Ukraine?
- hyperdunc 4y ago
  That's not where most of the gas is going. It would have been smart to invest in energy diversity before the war started. Too late for that now.
  - HyprMusic 4y ago
    It is overwhelmingly used for heating, followed by boiling water and cooking. Please spend 5 minutes googling before throwing out baseless claims. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Energy_consumption_in_households#Energy_consumption_in_households_by_type_of_end-use https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
    - empiricus 4y ago
      from the link: "final energy consumption in residential sector" - so it does not include the industrial usage
    - mdorazio 4y ago
      From the Highlights section in your link: "In 2019, households represented 26% of final energy consumption, or 17% of gross inland energy consumption, in the EU". So 74% of consumption is not households. What am I missing?
  - MrYellowP 4y ago
    > That's not where most of the gas is going. Translated: It doesn't matter if people freeze, to death or otherwise. I guess you also don't mind food shortages, as long as they don't affect you personally.
    - hyperdunc 4y ago
      Would you turn off all the gas? Are there no other ways to light the metaphorical fire? Isn't it interesting how you admit that the lives of so many depend on natural resources they don't control?
- jamesmishra 4y ago
  Should people in Ukraine be killed by missiles?
  - phero_cnstrcts 4y ago
    No, but that is not the fault of the 80-year old man in Brussels.
    - jamesmishra 4y ago
      I don't think a natural gas tariff would kill anybody in Brussels. Not a single person. But if burnt corpses start piling up in Brussels, I'll come back to this thread and admit to being wrong.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      The 80-year-old man in this analogy is just a casualty of war, war has consequences, and the response will be emergent and unpredictable.
- ilammy 4y ago
  You're overdramatizing. At worst, your 80-year old man would get double or triple the heating bill, then probably demand that to be paid from taxes via subsidies. And that is what people don't want.
  - munch117 4y ago
    Triple the heating bill is what we're seeing right now for natural gas consumers. The at worst scenario is way beyond that.
  - IAmEveryone 4y ago
    Money doesn't create natural gas. If you shut down a pipeline bringing in some amount <x>, and you cannot find a new source to get that amount, somthing has to give, somewhere, you have to use less of the stuff.
    - ilammy 4y ago
      You don't need natural gas for housing heating. Buy an electrical heater, pay "exorbitant" electricity bills, get electricity rerouted from other sources (you could still, like, import coal by sea if you don't like nuclear). True, industrial users can't just start using something else instead of gas in their processes. And if they go out of business, that's production gone, supply chains gone, workplaces gone. Certainly not a good thing, but please – it's not elderly frozen to death by this Christmas.
      - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
        Do electric heaters magically appear? You do know that stores don't stock enough electric heaters for an entire country to go out and buy them, right? An economic and manufacturing powerhouse like the US couldn't even deal with people buying extra toilet paper. What would happen if everyone in the EU all at once tried to buy electric heaters?
        ilammy 4y ago
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  How can you expect a man who is warm to understand one who is freezing?
- rosndo 4y ago
  Why would that 80-year old man just not wear more clothes instead of freezing to death? Is the implication that he lacks the mental capacity to do so because of old age? Does the old man just not own enough clothes? If so, why would gas prices be the problem instead of his lack of clothes?
markvdb 4y ago
I'd wager most Europeans are willing to sacrifice comforts. I'm not aware of EU wide polling around this theme, but look at page 7 of the latest Infratest-Dimap survey[0] for example. A majority of Germans want an oil boycott, even if that is forecast to bring a -3% negative effect on German GDP. The only population subgroup with a clear majority against a boycott are AfD supporters. [0] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_Report.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_...
- scandox 4y ago
  I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. And Ireland isn't that cold.
  - beckman466 4y ago
    > I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. > Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. there's probably thousands of times more gas used to produce all the commodities you buy and use in your everyday life. so this strategy of individualist 'sacrifice' (vs. systemic change) is merely a fart in the wind.
    - ilammy 4y ago
      Exactly. Thank you for reusing cardboard while the airlines fly empty planes just to maintain their slots. It makes you feel better for having a moral high ground, sure. Objectively it's not that big of a change, while systemic social changes take time. For the most people, it feels like not in their lifetime.
    - scandox 4y ago
      40% of gas usage in Europe is domestic. I think that's not insignificant. I agree my individual action is not very relevant but I think a widespread adoption of such measures would have an impact on political thinking in Europe. Obviously that hasn't happened.
    - 4y ago
DocTomoe 4y ago
So, what are Americans suspending? After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. That being said: the problem is not necessarily gas-powered heating. The problem is an industry that is hugely dependant on gas, and - specific Ural-originated gas (yes, the factories can be modified to accept gas with a different chemical composition, but that takes time and money).
- crossroadsguy 4y ago
  Americans are suspending those skipped breaths during the minutes when they were busy registering their outrage online.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. Absolutely not. American expansionism got us into the migrant crisis mess, but Russia invading Ukraine is 100% on Russia.
- rosndo 4y ago
  What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories.
  - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
    > What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories. In Puttin's point of view, any new NATO member is yet another US territory to deploy weapons from.
    - robbedpeter 4y ago
      Putin is a paranoid tyrant who should be put down like a rabid wolf. Nobody should care what Putin thinks or wants. After he's gone let's see what shakes out.
      - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
sitic 4y ago
Have a look at Italy. 40% of the electricity is generated from natural gas, which largely comes from Russia. https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-milan-lifestyle-5f7febf726aa02df8cb9d9599cfe3912 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-mil... How could one overcome this in a short period of time without shutting down the whole economy? These aren't "comforts", they are necessities.

Well what do you suggest? An 80-year old man in Brussels should freeze to death in their apartment because Russia invaded Ukraine?

hyperdunc 4y ago
That's not where most of the gas is going. It would have been smart to invest in energy diversity before the war started. Too late for that now.
- HyprMusic 4y ago
  It is overwhelmingly used for heating, followed by boiling water and cooking. Please spend 5 minutes googling before throwing out baseless claims. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Energy_consumption_in_households#Energy_consumption_in_households_by_type_of_end-use https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
  - empiricus 4y ago
    from the link: "final energy consumption in residential sector" - so it does not include the industrial usage
  - mdorazio 4y ago
    From the Highlights section in your link: "In 2019, households represented 26% of final energy consumption, or 17% of gross inland energy consumption, in the EU". So 74% of consumption is not households. What am I missing?
- MrYellowP 4y ago
  > That's not where most of the gas is going. Translated: It doesn't matter if people freeze, to death or otherwise. I guess you also don't mind food shortages, as long as they don't affect you personally.
  - hyperdunc 4y ago
    Would you turn off all the gas? Are there no other ways to light the metaphorical fire? Isn't it interesting how you admit that the lives of so many depend on natural resources they don't control?
jamesmishra 4y ago
Should people in Ukraine be killed by missiles?
- phero_cnstrcts 4y ago
  No, but that is not the fault of the 80-year old man in Brussels.
  - jamesmishra 4y ago
    I don't think a natural gas tariff would kill anybody in Brussels. Not a single person. But if burnt corpses start piling up in Brussels, I'll come back to this thread and admit to being wrong.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    The 80-year-old man in this analogy is just a casualty of war, war has consequences, and the response will be emergent and unpredictable.
ilammy 4y ago
You're overdramatizing. At worst, your 80-year old man would get double or triple the heating bill, then probably demand that to be paid from taxes via subsidies. And that is what people don't want.
- munch117 4y ago
  Triple the heating bill is what we're seeing right now for natural gas consumers. The at worst scenario is way beyond that.
- IAmEveryone 4y ago
  Money doesn't create natural gas. If you shut down a pipeline bringing in some amount <x>, and you cannot find a new source to get that amount, somthing has to give, somewhere, you have to use less of the stuff.
  - ilammy 4y ago
    You don't need natural gas for housing heating. Buy an electrical heater, pay "exorbitant" electricity bills, get electricity rerouted from other sources (you could still, like, import coal by sea if you don't like nuclear). True, industrial users can't just start using something else instead of gas in their processes. And if they go out of business, that's production gone, supply chains gone, workplaces gone. Certainly not a good thing, but please – it's not elderly frozen to death by this Christmas.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      Do electric heaters magically appear? You do know that stores don't stock enough electric heaters for an entire country to go out and buy them, right? An economic and manufacturing powerhouse like the US couldn't even deal with people buying extra toilet paper. What would happen if everyone in the EU all at once tried to buy electric heaters?
      - ilammy 4y ago
madaxe_again 4y ago
How can you expect a man who is warm to understand one who is freezing?
rosndo 4y ago
Why would that 80-year old man just not wear more clothes instead of freezing to death? Is the implication that he lacks the mental capacity to do so because of old age? Does the old man just not own enough clothes? If so, why would gas prices be the problem instead of his lack of clothes?

markvdb 4y ago

I'd wager most Europeans are willing to sacrifice comforts. I'm not aware of EU wide polling around this theme, but look at page 7 of the latest Infratest-Dimap survey[0] for example. A majority of Germans want an oil boycott, even if that is forecast to bring a -3% negative effect on German GDP. The only population subgroup with a clear majority against a boycott are AfD supporters. [0] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_Report.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_...

scandox 4y ago
I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. And Ireland isn't that cold.
- beckman466 4y ago
  > I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. > Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. there's probably thousands of times more gas used to produce all the commodities you buy and use in your everyday life. so this strategy of individualist 'sacrifice' (vs. systemic change) is merely a fart in the wind.
  - ilammy 4y ago
    Exactly. Thank you for reusing cardboard while the airlines fly empty planes just to maintain their slots. It makes you feel better for having a moral high ground, sure. Objectively it's not that big of a change, while systemic social changes take time. For the most people, it feels like not in their lifetime.
  - scandox 4y ago
    40% of gas usage in Europe is domestic. I think that's not insignificant. I agree my individual action is not very relevant but I think a widespread adoption of such measures would have an impact on political thinking in Europe. Obviously that hasn't happened.
  - 4y ago

DocTomoe 4y ago

So, what are Americans suspending? After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. That being said: the problem is not necessarily gas-powered heating. The problem is an industry that is hugely dependant on gas, and - specific Ural-originated gas (yes, the factories can be modified to accept gas with a different chemical composition, but that takes time and money).

crossroadsguy 4y ago
Americans are suspending those skipped breaths during the minutes when they were busy registering their outrage online.
sofixa 4y ago
> After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. Absolutely not. American expansionism got us into the migrant crisis mess, but Russia invading Ukraine is 100% on Russia.
rosndo 4y ago
What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories.
- ElectricalUnion 4y ago
  > What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories. In Puttin's point of view, any new NATO member is yet another US territory to deploy weapons from.
  - robbedpeter 4y ago
    Putin is a paranoid tyrant who should be put down like a rabid wolf. Nobody should care what Putin thinks or wants. After he's gone let's see what shakes out.
    - ElectricalUnion 4y ago

sitic 4y ago

Have a look at Italy. 40% of the electricity is generated from natural gas, which largely comes from Russia. https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-milan-lifestyle-5f7febf726aa02df8cb9d9599cfe3912 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-mil... How could one overcome this in a short period of time without shutting down the whole economy? These aren't "comforts", they are necessities.