9 ms·

Emory Univ. restricts WiFi for students noncompliant with booster requirements

51 points by cglong 5y ago

infamouscow 5y ago
It's almost like universities are intentionally trying to become even more irrelevant than they already are. I'm looking forward to when this asinine paternal nonsense backfires.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  This is the same school where students said they felt unsafe because someone, likely another student, wrote "Trump 2016" on the sidewalk with chalk, something very common with other messages too but because that one mentioned Trump, they were in fear of their safety. Paternal nonsense seems to be something the student body, or the loudmouth segment, desires.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sva_ 5y ago
That makes sense, since it'll flatten the curve on social media platforms. /s This seems like they are acknowledging the addictive potential of certain web services and are using it to force compliance among their students. I think that is despicable, if that is what is going on. PS: I'm fully vaccinated. Sadly it seems necessary to make such a disclaimer, lest the hatemob will destroy you and not even consider your argument. edit: Always interesting to have a controversial comment. I counted -11 +9 so far. I'm seeing very little engagement for that. I don't think my comment was particularly inflammatory, merely poking a little fun at the authoritarian political plays we've seen during this pandemic. So I'm wondering why people are so motivated to vote on my post.
- version_five 5y ago
  (Edit directed at the parent comment: this is one of the rare instances where I would argue the "flag" system has been abused. I can see disagreement with your comment, but the idea that it's so egregious that it need to be killed is absurd. My original reply below) Quebec Canada made it so you had to show proof of vaccination to go to the liquor store (your comment about exploiting addiction made me think of that). Any pretext of actual public health benefit has been abandoned long ago (I disagree with but understand the argument why you'd want a bunch of people without masks in close proximity to have taken a vaccine that actually prevents transmission). Some people seem to think it's acceptable for institutions to just be able to pick on people without an acute reason to require them to be vaccinated, in order to "nudge" them toward a perceived greater good. I dont (I also have all my vaccines and got each the first day I was eligible. Opposing this nonsense has nothing to do with opposing vaccines - as a concept, or the covid ones.)
  - 14 5y ago
    I agree with you. It has gone from public health measure to some dystopian form of control. I too have all my vaccines and also caught covid. It may have helped lessen my infection but we will never know. What really showed me this was about control is when several coworkers were let go because they did not want to get the vaccine. I am in healthcare. Then when staffing shortages happened they decided people who were sick with covid but showing minor symptoms could work while sick verses calling back those who were unvaccinated but not currently sick. If it was about public safety they would not be having sick covid workers over non sick but unvaccinated. I lost all respect at that point in time. Again I have all my vaccinations.
    - batty 5y ago
      So your coworkers, presumably health care professionals, refused to accept the most basic public health measure, and expected to keep working, presumably in proximity to vulnerable populations? I hardly think their employer is the unreasonable party here. (E.g. I also wouldn't hire a lawyer who advocated trial by combat or a chemist who advocated alchemy...)
userbinator 5y ago
Good way to make people learn about VPNs, DNS tunneling, etc....
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Technologies like those are only useful to fight censored Internet access. They're useless when all access is completely blocked.
  - GordoFormEarth 5y ago
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  Those don’t work if you can’t login to the WiFi in the first place. Imagine if your ISP dropped you as a customer. A VPN and DNS tunneling will do you jack squat if your modem can’t talk to the ISP.
  - GordoFormEarth 5y ago
    Cool, cool. Except, from the first paragraph of the article: > The restrictions caused students’ Wi-Fi to slow down and blocked access to nonacademic sites such as social media and video games.
akomtu 5y ago
Is this university funded, at least partially, by pfizer?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Emory and the CDC are co-located.
Kaze404 5y ago
Good
DiabloD3 5y ago
This almost sounds like they're trying to hide the fact that they have law-violating students on campus by removing one decent way of tracking. "Hey, so-and-so's phone just connected to campus Wi-Fi again," "Damnit, we told him he can't be back until he gets jabbed, go call security." No tracking means no non-compliance. What a backwards way of thinking.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Don't many phones do MAC address randomization now? Or does the WiFi use authentication via users/keys?
  - sva_ 5y ago
    Many university networks use something like 802.1X (P)EAP authentication for their networks, where you have to login with user/password to get access. I'm assuming they're probably using something like that and give individual user groups corresponding access rights.
- IdEntities 5y ago
  There is no law requiring students to be vaccinated, it is purely a mandate implemented at the university's discretion.
josephcsible 5y ago
There might be a really slightly legitimate argument to not letting people enter buildings without being vaccinated. But unless whoever made this rule is really so stupid as to think COVID spreads over local wireless networks, they're doing this just to demonstrate their dominance over the student body, and not for any legitimate reason whatsoever.
- version_five 5y ago
  This is a sort of stereotypical technocratic solution if you think about it. It ignores any rights or norms about how people and institutions interact and just implements a technical, social-credit style solution. If this was Singapore, maybe it would be something the population would embrace, but it's imo not appropriate for western society.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  Or they think it might encourage people to go and get a booster. I didn't get my second vaccination for a while purely because I kept forgetting, if I my Wi-Fi (i.e. the reason why I was forgetting) got cut off then I'd have probably got it much faster. Justified? Up to you, but I think your hypothesis is either stupid or unempathetic.
  - version_five 5y ago
    So on one hand vaccination is so important in your view that there should be institutional interventions to try and force us to get it. But on the other hand, you didn't do your part for ths good of humanity because "you kept forgetting"? (Edit, I saw you posted elsewhere saying it was because you are too lazy) For personal reasons, I got mine right away in an area where it was scarce, and had to monitor availability and at a moment's notice drive and line up for hours somewhere to get it. You are to apathetic to even bother remembering, but think that it's ok for a university to exercise it's power over others to force them to get vaccinated.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      It wasn't scarce where I was because I wasn't legally allowed to even try and get when it was scarce. The vast majority of students weren't offered a vaccine in the UK until we were vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people a day. The only hard deadline I had for myself was to get it before I had to actually interact with groups of people again, which I did meet, but only just. I also know people who didn't bother getting theirs at all. So yeah, I don't really have any huge issues with the policy. Equally I wouldn't care if they just bribed the students with something.
dmart 5y ago
Okay - Emory also requires students to receive or be exempted from 6 other kinds of immunizations [0]. There is nothing unique or interesting about this, except perhaps that they are being extra lenient and apparently only restricting Internet access instead of blocking course registration as described in their immunization policy. [0]: https://studenthealth.emory.edu/_includes/documents/policy-8-17.pdf https://studenthealth.emory.edu/_includes/documents/policy-8...
- josephcsible 5y ago
  The point is that even if being unvaccinated were really a health hazard, making the students use cellular data instead of Wi-Fi wouldn't do anything to mitigate said hazard, so it seems like they're doing this just to be mean.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    If they're the kind of student (like me) who is too lazy to go and get a jab then it would probably work pretty well. Is that not obvious?
    - spicybright 5y ago
      Absolutely agree. High speed internet is a luxury people want more than getting the vaccine. Phones barely work in your typical college dorm anyways, depending on building materials.
- IdEntities 5y ago
  Do those other required immunizations involve semi-annual boosters which have never gone through clinical trials to determine the safety of repeat dosing? Do they provide sterilizing immunity which durably and significantly reduces the odds that the recipient will be a carrier for the disease being inoculated against?
- realreality 5y ago
  For Chicken Pox, they will accept a positive anti-body test. If a student had Chicken Pox as a child, they'd be exempt. But if a student had COVID last semester, they still must receive a booster shot (against a strain of SARS-CoV2 that no longer exists). How does that make sense?
IgorPartola 5y ago
So the students don’t get Wi-Fi or 5G? Draconian :)
exogeny 5y ago
So? They’re a private university, they can do what they want. You also can choose to no longer attend. But the faux outrage over this — “they shouldn’t be allowed to do that!” — reads very hypocritical to me, like private entities are allowed to do what they want without interference until they do something that is personally disagreeable.
- marklubi 5y ago
  > So? They’re a private university, they can do what they want. How does that work if you don’t want to bake a cake? I’m all for individual rights, but this statement is so hypocritical that I find it hard to not comment on it.
  - version_five 5y ago
    This is good, regardless of how it gets moderated
    - marklubi 5y ago
      Thank you!
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    The reason why the “bake a cake” thing was ever an actual point of controversy is because it centered around an immutable aspect of people; their sexual orientation. There is leagues of difference between denying service due to who they are vs. their behavior.
    - IdEntities 5y ago
      Muslims can simply renounce their faith whenever they like.
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        As can Christians, aethists, or whomever else. Are you arguing that we should remove religion from the list of protected classes? A bit harder than most of the others since it happens to be in the constitution, but whatever, I'm open to that idea...
lmg643 5y ago
I think it's ridiculous to force healthy college students to get a covid vaccine, and 100x to mandate a booster. Curious if this becomes a flag or 100x downvote, but at some point we have to face reality - covid just isn't that severe for young folks, and the vaccines offer temporary protection that simply doesn't make sense for low risk groups.
notadoc 5y ago
Which booster number is Emory on, and how many they will ultimately require? Since the boosters only work for a few weeks and with efficacy quickly waning, it seems obvious the current injections are not going to stop Covid, especially given they do not stop infection or transmission. Israel has a lot of publicly available data on this, they're past the 4th mRNA injection now. https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2201570 https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2201570 https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-finds-4th-dose-not-good-enough-against-omicron/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-fin... I know this information can be very difficult for some to acknowledge.
kkfx 5y ago
Here in EU, at least in all EU countries I know, if a uni or any other private or public/non-health institution try to impose medical practice they can be sued for various crimes, some of which are criminal (witch means interdiction disqualification from public office and obligation / automation to continue legal action by the State (witch means no agreement allowed)... IMVHO USA People should impose a clear limit in private institution choices, not only for health but also for privacy, dress code etc. Being a society means the society have rules, parts of it can diverge to a certain extent ONLY if that choice do not touch third parties.
- ashildr 5y ago
  If you study anything related to medical science in Germany you already have to be vaccinated or immune against measles. I’m not sure if it was required, but I remember that I was vaccinated against hepatitis in that context, too. As a relative of a not-completely-healthy person working at a German university, who can’t avoid contact to students, I don’t see a problem in requiring students to be vaccinated and boostered. The risk that someone who is vaccinated and boostered is at any point in time spreading infectious SARS-CoV-2 is lower, than if they are not. And personally I feel as if the risk that someone who does not want to be vaccinated does not follow the rest of common hygiene standards is high, too. Want to enjoy civilization? Be a part of civilization. (Hell, there even seems to be a strong relation between “drives like an idiot” and “can’t be bothered to wear a mask in the bakery”.)
  - kkfx 5y ago
    > The risk that someone who is vaccinated and boostered is at any point in time spreading infectious SARS-CoV-2 is lower, than if they are not. You miss two things: the first is that vaccine by definition immunize, witch means if you are vaccinated you are immune. If that's not the case those vaccines are failed products (and in general we do not have ANY vaccine for viruses exactly because they all failed). So SARS-CoV-2 prove to be failed vaccine and are declared as failure even before experimenting on them. They are just another pandemic scandal, one per declaration of pandemic, bye the WHO, just read the history: H2N2 (1957), H3N2 (1968), SARS-CoV (2003), H5N1 (2004), H1N1 (2009), MERS-CoV (2012) and SARS-CoV2 now, always the same scheme, always the same scandal, enough years in the middle to make people forget the recent past. Measles vaccine are another proved scandal because they fail to immunize for life, for an illness not dangerous when child but dangerous when adult, exactly when vaccine inducted weak immunity drop. But vaccines are one of the biggest source of income for Big Pharma so they push them, those who are effective AND those who aren't helping narrative against them by people who believes in chemtrails, flat earth etc to pass those who criticize with scientific reasons as the aforementioned ones. Accepting that it's not being part of actual civilization but being accomplices in crime against humanity. Learn science and so being able to distinguish science and propaganda is being part of our civilization witch formally is based on science. Beside that, back in topic, yes some EU countries have some childhood mandatory vaccines, but not new ones, those who are tested in decades, some of proven ineffectiveness, some very useful, some just dangerous, some useful but not mandatory and in Germany few days ago the Parliament reject mandatory covid vaccinations definitively...

51 points by cglong 5y ago

It's almost like universities are intentionally trying to become even more irrelevant than they already are. I'm looking forward to when this asinine paternal nonsense backfires.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
This is the same school where students said they felt unsafe because someone, likely another student, wrote "Trump 2016" on the sidewalk with chalk, something very common with other messages too but because that one mentioned Trump, they were in fear of their safety. Paternal nonsense seems to be something the student body, or the loudmouth segment, desires.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sva_ 5y ago

That makes sense, since it'll flatten the curve on social media platforms. /s This seems like they are acknowledging the addictive potential of certain web services and are using it to force compliance among their students. I think that is despicable, if that is what is going on. PS: I'm fully vaccinated. Sadly it seems necessary to make such a disclaimer, lest the hatemob will destroy you and not even consider your argument. edit: Always interesting to have a controversial comment. I counted -11 +9 so far. I'm seeing very little engagement for that. I don't think my comment was particularly inflammatory, merely poking a little fun at the authoritarian political plays we've seen during this pandemic. So I'm wondering why people are so motivated to vote on my post.

version_five 5y ago
(Edit directed at the parent comment: this is one of the rare instances where I would argue the "flag" system has been abused. I can see disagreement with your comment, but the idea that it's so egregious that it need to be killed is absurd. My original reply below) Quebec Canada made it so you had to show proof of vaccination to go to the liquor store (your comment about exploiting addiction made me think of that). Any pretext of actual public health benefit has been abandoned long ago (I disagree with but understand the argument why you'd want a bunch of people without masks in close proximity to have taken a vaccine that actually prevents transmission). Some people seem to think it's acceptable for institutions to just be able to pick on people without an acute reason to require them to be vaccinated, in order to "nudge" them toward a perceived greater good. I dont (I also have all my vaccines and got each the first day I was eligible. Opposing this nonsense has nothing to do with opposing vaccines - as a concept, or the covid ones.)
- 14 5y ago
  I agree with you. It has gone from public health measure to some dystopian form of control. I too have all my vaccines and also caught covid. It may have helped lessen my infection but we will never know. What really showed me this was about control is when several coworkers were let go because they did not want to get the vaccine. I am in healthcare. Then when staffing shortages happened they decided people who were sick with covid but showing minor symptoms could work while sick verses calling back those who were unvaccinated but not currently sick. If it was about public safety they would not be having sick covid workers over non sick but unvaccinated. I lost all respect at that point in time. Again I have all my vaccinations.
  - batty 5y ago
    So your coworkers, presumably health care professionals, refused to accept the most basic public health measure, and expected to keep working, presumably in proximity to vulnerable populations? I hardly think their employer is the unreasonable party here. (E.g. I also wouldn't hire a lawyer who advocated trial by combat or a chemist who advocated alchemy...)

userbinator 5y ago

Good way to make people learn about VPNs, DNS tunneling, etc....

josephcsible 5y ago
Technologies like those are only useful to fight censored Internet access. They're useless when all access is completely blocked.
- GordoFormEarth 5y ago
colejohnson66 5y ago
Those don’t work if you can’t login to the WiFi in the first place. Imagine if your ISP dropped you as a customer. A VPN and DNS tunneling will do you jack squat if your modem can’t talk to the ISP.
- GordoFormEarth 5y ago
  Cool, cool. Except, from the first paragraph of the article: > The restrictions caused students’ Wi-Fi to slow down and blocked access to nonacademic sites such as social media and video games.

akomtu 5y ago

Is this university funded, at least partially, by pfizer?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Emory and the CDC are co-located.

Kaze404 5y ago

Good

DiabloD3 5y ago

This almost sounds like they're trying to hide the fact that they have law-violating students on campus by removing one decent way of tracking. "Hey, so-and-so's phone just connected to campus Wi-Fi again," "Damnit, we told him he can't be back until he gets jabbed, go call security." No tracking means no non-compliance. What a backwards way of thinking.

heavyset_go 5y ago
Don't many phones do MAC address randomization now? Or does the WiFi use authentication via users/keys?
- sva_ 5y ago
  Many university networks use something like 802.1X (P)EAP authentication for their networks, where you have to login with user/password to get access. I'm assuming they're probably using something like that and give individual user groups corresponding access rights.
IdEntities 5y ago
There is no law requiring students to be vaccinated, it is purely a mandate implemented at the university's discretion.

josephcsible 5y ago

There might be a really slightly legitimate argument to not letting people enter buildings without being vaccinated. But unless whoever made this rule is really so stupid as to think COVID spreads over local wireless networks, they're doing this just to demonstrate their dominance over the student body, and not for any legitimate reason whatsoever.

version_five 5y ago
This is a sort of stereotypical technocratic solution if you think about it. It ignores any rights or norms about how people and institutions interact and just implements a technical, social-credit style solution. If this was Singapore, maybe it would be something the population would embrace, but it's imo not appropriate for western society.
mhh__ 5y ago
Or they think it might encourage people to go and get a booster. I didn't get my second vaccination for a while purely because I kept forgetting, if I my Wi-Fi (i.e. the reason why I was forgetting) got cut off then I'd have probably got it much faster. Justified? Up to you, but I think your hypothesis is either stupid or unempathetic.
- version_five 5y ago
  So on one hand vaccination is so important in your view that there should be institutional interventions to try and force us to get it. But on the other hand, you didn't do your part for ths good of humanity because "you kept forgetting"? (Edit, I saw you posted elsewhere saying it was because you are too lazy) For personal reasons, I got mine right away in an area where it was scarce, and had to monitor availability and at a moment's notice drive and line up for hours somewhere to get it. You are to apathetic to even bother remembering, but think that it's ok for a university to exercise it's power over others to force them to get vaccinated.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    It wasn't scarce where I was because I wasn't legally allowed to even try and get when it was scarce. The vast majority of students weren't offered a vaccine in the UK until we were vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people a day. The only hard deadline I had for myself was to get it before I had to actually interact with groups of people again, which I did meet, but only just. I also know people who didn't bother getting theirs at all. So yeah, I don't really have any huge issues with the policy. Equally I wouldn't care if they just bribed the students with something.

dmart 5y ago

Okay - Emory also requires students to receive or be exempted from 6 other kinds of immunizations [0]. There is nothing unique or interesting about this, except perhaps that they are being extra lenient and apparently only restricting Internet access instead of blocking course registration as described in their immunization policy. [0]: https://studenthealth.emory.edu/_includes/documents/policy-8-17.pdf https://studenthealth.emory.edu/_includes/documents/policy-8...

josephcsible 5y ago
The point is that even if being unvaccinated were really a health hazard, making the students use cellular data instead of Wi-Fi wouldn't do anything to mitigate said hazard, so it seems like they're doing this just to be mean.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  If they're the kind of student (like me) who is too lazy to go and get a jab then it would probably work pretty well. Is that not obvious?
  - spicybright 5y ago
    Absolutely agree. High speed internet is a luxury people want more than getting the vaccine. Phones barely work in your typical college dorm anyways, depending on building materials.
IdEntities 5y ago
Do those other required immunizations involve semi-annual boosters which have never gone through clinical trials to determine the safety of repeat dosing? Do they provide sterilizing immunity which durably and significantly reduces the odds that the recipient will be a carrier for the disease being inoculated against?
realreality 5y ago
For Chicken Pox, they will accept a positive anti-body test. If a student had Chicken Pox as a child, they'd be exempt. But if a student had COVID last semester, they still must receive a booster shot (against a strain of SARS-CoV2 that no longer exists). How does that make sense?

IgorPartola 5y ago

So the students don’t get Wi-Fi or 5G? Draconian :)

exogeny 5y ago

So? They’re a private university, they can do what they want. You also can choose to no longer attend. But the faux outrage over this — “they shouldn’t be allowed to do that!” — reads very hypocritical to me, like private entities are allowed to do what they want without interference until they do something that is personally disagreeable.

marklubi 5y ago
> So? They’re a private university, they can do what they want. How does that work if you don’t want to bake a cake? I’m all for individual rights, but this statement is so hypocritical that I find it hard to not comment on it.
- version_five 5y ago
  This is good, regardless of how it gets moderated
  - marklubi 5y ago
    Thank you!
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  The reason why the “bake a cake” thing was ever an actual point of controversy is because it centered around an immutable aspect of people; their sexual orientation. There is leagues of difference between denying service due to who they are vs. their behavior.
  - IdEntities 5y ago
    Muslims can simply renounce their faith whenever they like.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      As can Christians, aethists, or whomever else. Are you arguing that we should remove religion from the list of protected classes? A bit harder than most of the others since it happens to be in the constitution, but whatever, I'm open to that idea...

lmg643 5y ago

I think it's ridiculous to force healthy college students to get a covid vaccine, and 100x to mandate a booster. Curious if this becomes a flag or 100x downvote, but at some point we have to face reality - covid just isn't that severe for young folks, and the vaccines offer temporary protection that simply doesn't make sense for low risk groups.

notadoc 5y ago

Which booster number is Emory on, and how many they will ultimately require? Since the boosters only work for a few weeks and with efficacy quickly waning, it seems obvious the current injections are not going to stop Covid, especially given they do not stop infection or transmission. Israel has a lot of publicly available data on this, they're past the 4th mRNA injection now. https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2201570 https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2201570 https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-finds-4th-dose-not-good-enough-against-omicron/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-fin... I know this information can be very difficult for some to acknowledge.

kkfx 5y ago

Here in EU, at least in all EU countries I know, if a uni or any other private or public/non-health institution try to impose medical practice they can be sued for various crimes, some of which are criminal (witch means interdiction disqualification from public office and obligation / automation to continue legal action by the State (witch means no agreement allowed)... IMVHO USA People should impose a clear limit in private institution choices, not only for health but also for privacy, dress code etc. Being a society means the society have rules, parts of it can diverge to a certain extent ONLY if that choice do not touch third parties.

ashildr 5y ago
If you study anything related to medical science in Germany you already have to be vaccinated or immune against measles. I’m not sure if it was required, but I remember that I was vaccinated against hepatitis in that context, too. As a relative of a not-completely-healthy person working at a German university, who can’t avoid contact to students, I don’t see a problem in requiring students to be vaccinated and boostered. The risk that someone who is vaccinated and boostered is at any point in time spreading infectious SARS-CoV-2 is lower, than if they are not. And personally I feel as if the risk that someone who does not want to be vaccinated does not follow the rest of common hygiene standards is high, too. Want to enjoy civilization? Be a part of civilization. (Hell, there even seems to be a strong relation between “drives like an idiot” and “can’t be bothered to wear a mask in the bakery”.)
- kkfx 5y ago
  > The risk that someone who is vaccinated and boostered is at any point in time spreading infectious SARS-CoV-2 is lower, than if they are not. You miss two things: the first is that vaccine by definition immunize, witch means if you are vaccinated you are immune. If that's not the case those vaccines are failed products (and in general we do not have ANY vaccine for viruses exactly because they all failed). So SARS-CoV-2 prove to be failed vaccine and are declared as failure even before experimenting on them. They are just another pandemic scandal, one per declaration of pandemic, bye the WHO, just read the history: H2N2 (1957), H3N2 (1968), SARS-CoV (2003), H5N1 (2004), H1N1 (2009), MERS-CoV (2012) and SARS-CoV2 now, always the same scheme, always the same scandal, enough years in the middle to make people forget the recent past. Measles vaccine are another proved scandal because they fail to immunize for life, for an illness not dangerous when child but dangerous when adult, exactly when vaccine inducted weak immunity drop. But vaccines are one of the biggest source of income for Big Pharma so they push them, those who are effective AND those who aren't helping narrative against them by people who believes in chemtrails, flat earth etc to pass those who criticize with scientific reasons as the aforementioned ones. Accepting that it's not being part of actual civilization but being accomplices in crime against humanity. Learn science and so being able to distinguish science and propaganda is being part of our civilization witch formally is based on science. Beside that, back in topic, yes some EU countries have some childhood mandatory vaccines, but not new ones, those who are tested in decades, some of proven ineffectiveness, some very useful, some just dangerous, some useful but not mandatory and in Germany few days ago the Parliament reject mandatory covid vaccinations definitively...