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Ask HN: Any Parents to “Average” Children?

Edit: I will rewrite and post this again. Thank you to Paul and Ross for helpful comments that directly answered the question I asked.

tamaharbor 5y ago
I recall Gunther on Futurama was happiest with his half-Electronium hat. Moderate intelligence is just fine, perhaps even better.
- version_five 5y ago
  To add to that, we're not even talking about "intelligence" here. We are talking about a single score a preschooler (as I understand it) got on a particular assessment instrument. That's not the thing that should play a meaningful role in defining one's life.
dudul 5y ago
An IQ test for a preschooler. Is there any less valuable metric out there?
- antisthenes 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm not sure what the point is. Good IQ tests usually test vocabulary and text comprehension, which a preschooler will not have, period. Testing kids earlier than 12 seems like absolute nonsense.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rossdavidh 5y ago
I have an IQ of 130 or a bit more (last I checked, it was many years). I have never gotten my daughter's IQ tested. If she has an IQ of 102, but is emotionally balanced, she's got a bright future. One of the features of an emotionally gifted/balanced/well-adjusted person, is their ability to use all of their mental powers to bear on a problem, without letting their wishes or fears overwhelm their intellect. Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one, but plenty of people screw it up because they let envy, shame, fear, greed, or other emotions get the better of them. Your role would be to let her use her talents to make reasonable, well-adjusted choices in life. If she never gets a high IQ, that's not a big problem, as long as she isn't trying to pretend she does, in order to avoid disappointing a loving but emotionally "morose" parent. If she chooses a life that does not require a high IQ, she can still be happy and productive. If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that.
- Bostonian 5y ago
  "Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one" It's not so easy. For example, what fraction of high school students who are good at math know what an actuary is? They have likely heard of doctors, nurses, and lawyers, but what is a management consultant? I've read that there is still a strong tendency for children to follow the careers of their parents. Part of it is genetics (doctors' kids are more likely to have the IQ to be a doctor than kids in general), but part of it is just having those careers on your radar screen.
  - rossdavidh 5y ago
    Maybe I should have been more precise. It's not actually an intellectually difficult problem: it may require a lot of research effort, but it is not intellectually complex. Lots of effort is something plenty of IQ 102 people can do, and by the way lots of high-IQ people cannot. Determining if that career will work for you, while emotionally fraught, is not intellectually difficult. But, you're correct, it is not easy. Nothing about it requires a high IQ, though.
- perplexedparent 5y ago
  > If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that. Beautifully put. Thank you.
PaulHoule 5y ago
Yeah. My son has a very different intelligence than me. I learned to read when I was 3 as did his mom. My son was slow to read. I home schooled him in math a bit, he never really got algebra but I had to improve my ability to do mental arithmetic to keep up with him. He beats me at chess.
- perplexedparent 5y ago
  Thank you for sharing. Would love to see anecdotal stories like this, even with different endings.
bnthor 5y ago
Don’t focus too much on numbers… the day we’ll grade EQ we may reconsider what intelligence is.
lazyant 5y ago
Not sure what you are looking for but if it helps: more intelligent people tend to be less happy. [real citation needed]: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-so-many-smart-people-arent-happy/479832/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-so-... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/202111/13-reasons-why-high-iq-can-make-you-less-happy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/2... https://www.jhconline.com/are-smart-people-miserable.html https://www.jhconline.com/are-smart-people-miserable.html
bglazer 5y ago
It might be helpful to specify more precisely what's distressing to you about this.
- perplexedparent 5y ago
  Well, my morose nature is to be distressed by most situations :-) But, I feel like it's typical for "average" parents to seek help for dealing with their gifted children. I've read a bit about that online. Haven't seen much about the opposite. Imagine a parent who is proud of their child's precocity. What's the opposite of pride? Shame? Do I feel some shame? Maybe a smidge. Love is definitely the predominant feeling. Thank God.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    You are ashamed your child is pretty much like every other child? Am I reading that right? That seems really strange. My tip would be to just let the child be average. Do you think your higher IQ has made you happier throughout your life? Nothing bad about being average.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - mediumiqsad 5y ago
      OP's original post referenced this article [0] as a concern. [0] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-are-Palo-Alto-s-kids-killing-themselves-6270854.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-are-Palo-Alto-s-k... Are they concerned about depression because he's afraid his daughter won't be smart enough? Do they think 68% of the population within 1 SD of the mean IQ are suicidal, or should be?
danamit 5y ago
It's totally okay, I don't know why you should care. IQ is not some moral value. Support her in life, and make sure she gets a job that get her by in life without much suffering, and be glad you have a daughter that's mentally well.
ggm 5y ago
IQ testing and "gifted" labelling is as toxic as any other. Look at how many prodigies say life was distorted. Keep bright kids active, extended? Sure. But maintain links to your peer group. The cohort of people in the beyond normal bucket is tiny. Building dreams by hothousing is intellectual child abuse in most cases. Every "mensa" child I knew as a kid was an arrogant fuckhead. (I'm average, or below. Content.) My dad was super smart. He didn't push us. He said "regression tends to the mean" at the time, which I didn't understand but maybe now I do kinda. Aspire to be socially average but above normal productive, and maximise what you have judiciously
gwbas1c 5y ago
Remember that she's only a child, and has talents that are different than yours. Don't expect her to live up to who you are, because she's not you. Try to remember what it was like to be a kid. Make time to organize playdates and discuss behavior and development with her peers' parents. You'll find that it's easy to normalize her behavior when you realize that everyone struggles with their kids.
mediumiqsad 5y ago
This post makes me really sad. I wonder if my parents thought this about me when I was growing up. My dad's pretty smart,and probably knew I was dumb when I couldn't beat him at chess/mental math when I was younger. My mom and sister were voracious readers but I never was. Like your daughter, I'm average. I didn't go to an elite university. I make average pay and don't own a Mercedes. What's bad about that? Do you have pity on average people like me, who make up the vast majority of the population?
nichochar 5y ago
In my experience, attitude trumps IQ in pretty much all situations. Most humans are average in what they do. Potential doesn't matter, only reality does. Focusing on potential is what arrogant people that are lazy like to do, but mostly no one else cares. You are the perfect example: > I am now a below-average performer at an elite company Teach her to have mentality of curiosity, lifelong learning and humility and everything will be just fine.
autopilotlife 5y ago
OP, I'd really, really recommend that you are able to answer these questions before you start projecting assumptions, wishes, or expected failure onto a pre-schooler: - are you happy, right now? - are you living a life that you chose? - what makes you happy - what makes a live "well-lived"? I have this growing pit in my stomach right now that I just can't shake. Your IQ is high and you make a ton of money... and I doubt I'd trade places with you for any material possession on this Earth. You have a daughter to help guide through the world and you're on HN having an unspecified anxiety about a capricious measurement, of a 4 year old, that is widely accepted by thoughtful folks to be a largely unuseful metric. I suspect that maybe you're wondering about the legitimacy of those tests, questioning your own results, wondering what this means for her... and I really hope you can see that how you process this is going to affect how you treat her. That is going to affect her so much more than an IQ test done at 4, it's really worrisome to me that you can't see the forest for the trees. I always feel most loved by my parent, and most at peace with my path to find happiness in life, when they tell me "Whatever, we just want you to be happy.". It's what they said when I came out. It's what they said when I stepped back from a promising career because despite... the exceptional status and money I had... I was being under-valued, disrespected and made to do thoughtless techno-capital work. The self-doubt I already had from societal expectations would've crushed me if they had leaned into it and admonished me. I hope in your heart you realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness is far more important than projecting your unexamined internalized expectations onto her.
- perplexedparent 5y ago
  > realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness That's precisely what I'm working on here. There are countless guides for "average parents with gifted child." There are no guides for "gifted parents with average child".
  - mediumiqsad 5y ago
    You raise them like any other child. I've never seen a question like this.
  - 5y ago
tough 5y ago
Got 150, Im a mess never finished school, never did any study. Can code somehow which in this market is enough
- emteycz 5y ago
  Same here The more IQ the more mental illness
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - freedom2099 5y ago
    I don’t know… I was tested when I was 12 yo and got a 142, I am an extremely balanced, relaxed and happy person. Great self esteem too.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Better than winning a roulette, congratulations.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> but due to some difficulties in preschool, underwent some tests and has an IQ of 102. That's an average-ish result, so it probably isn't the source of the problems in preschool. OTOH whatever the unidentified source of those problems is may be depressing the results of the IQ assessment. (While IQ tests generally have decent test-retest consistency, there are definitely factors other than what they are intended to test that can impact them, and the kinds of other things that would lead to problems for which an IQ test would be part of the diagnostic response definitely include them.) In this scenario, were it me, “my child has a test showing average intelligence” would not be a major concern.
emteycz 5y ago
IQ is bullshit, don't put any importance whatsoever on it.
- Bostonian 5y ago
  There is much psychometric research contradicting this. Some authors are Ian Deary, Arthur Jensen, and Charles Murray.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - emteycz 5y ago
    I don't believe that for a minute. I taught "dumb" kids with all Fs programming and now they're just as good as the best 150+ IQ guys. I bet their IQ test results increased significantly (I know for sure about 3 cases of big increase of 25+ points) . IQ is bullshit, you can't change my mind. I'm fully convinced it's 100% dependent on parents and environment and can be changed (given enough determination) at any point in life. Anybody can be taught programming, and programmers have good IQ test results - both of these statements have proven true to me again and again.
rkk3 5y ago
Pre-school? Seems a bit early to be worried about their standardized test performance. It's a lot of theater to justify your tuition fee. But even if they have a lower test score (than you wanted)when they are 3/4/5 years old, so what? Don't be fatalistic, they have a lot of growing to do & need your support.
ed-209 5y ago
Overtimegoal 5y ago
I have three children - all now adults with successful careers. The oldest was a voracious reader from very early on. Headstrong and made lots of mistakes but is now a successful ice cream entrepreneur. Middle child was/is mathematically gifted. Kept him in sports - hockey, soccer, track, snowboarding - to balance the intellectual and keep him from getting bored. He's now a developer at a startup. My youngest turned out to be the weakest intellectually. Always struggled with school. But she worked hard (unlike the other two) and was always creative. She is now a UX designer at a big consulting firm and will probably do the best of all three because she learned how to work hard and has a flare for design that resonates. You can never tell what path they will take, so just encourage them whenever they show interest in something - even if it's not what you're into.

Edit: I will rewrite and post this again. Thank you to Paul and Ross for helpful comments that directly answered the question I asked.

tamaharbor 5y ago

I recall Gunther on Futurama was happiest with his half-Electronium hat. Moderate intelligence is just fine, perhaps even better.

version_five 5y ago
To add to that, we're not even talking about "intelligence" here. We are talking about a single score a preschooler (as I understand it) got on a particular assessment instrument. That's not the thing that should play a meaningful role in defining one's life.

dudul 5y ago

An IQ test for a preschooler. Is there any less valuable metric out there?

antisthenes 5y ago
Yeah, I'm not sure what the point is. Good IQ tests usually test vocabulary and text comprehension, which a preschooler will not have, period. Testing kids earlier than 12 seems like absolute nonsense.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rossdavidh 5y ago

I have an IQ of 130 or a bit more (last I checked, it was many years). I have never gotten my daughter's IQ tested. If she has an IQ of 102, but is emotionally balanced, she's got a bright future. One of the features of an emotionally gifted/balanced/well-adjusted person, is their ability to use all of their mental powers to bear on a problem, without letting their wishes or fears overwhelm their intellect. Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one, but plenty of people screw it up because they let envy, shame, fear, greed, or other emotions get the better of them. Your role would be to let her use her talents to make reasonable, well-adjusted choices in life. If she never gets a high IQ, that's not a big problem, as long as she isn't trying to pretend she does, in order to avoid disappointing a loving but emotionally "morose" parent. If she chooses a life that does not require a high IQ, she can still be happy and productive. If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that.

Bostonian 5y ago
"Plenty of high-IQ people with emotional issues who do not do as well in living a happy and productive life. For example, figuring out what careers are both plausible and reasonably rewarding (financially and otherwise) is not actually an intellectually difficult one" It's not so easy. For example, what fraction of high school students who are good at math know what an actuary is? They have likely heard of doctors, nurses, and lawyers, but what is a management consultant? I've read that there is still a strong tendency for children to follow the careers of their parents. Part of it is genetics (doctors' kids are more likely to have the IQ to be a doctor than kids in general), but part of it is just having those careers on your radar screen.
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  Maybe I should have been more precise. It's not actually an intellectually difficult problem: it may require a lot of research effort, but it is not intellectually complex. Lots of effort is something plenty of IQ 102 people can do, and by the way lots of high-IQ people cannot. Determining if that career will work for you, while emotionally fraught, is not intellectually difficult. But, you're correct, it is not easy. Nothing about it requires a high IQ, though.
perplexedparent 5y ago
> If she ever needs to make any decisions that require differential equations, she'll have plenty of friends she can ask for help on that. Beautifully put. Thank you.

PaulHoule 5y ago

Yeah. My son has a very different intelligence than me. I learned to read when I was 3 as did his mom. My son was slow to read. I home schooled him in math a bit, he never really got algebra but I had to improve my ability to do mental arithmetic to keep up with him. He beats me at chess.

perplexedparent 5y ago
Thank you for sharing. Would love to see anecdotal stories like this, even with different endings.

bnthor 5y ago

Don’t focus too much on numbers… the day we’ll grade EQ we may reconsider what intelligence is.

lazyant 5y ago

Not sure what you are looking for but if it helps: more intelligent people tend to be less happy. [real citation needed]: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-so-many-smart-people-arent-happy/479832/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-so-... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/202111/13-reasons-why-high-iq-can-make-you-less-happy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/2... https://www.jhconline.com/are-smart-people-miserable.html https://www.jhconline.com/are-smart-people-miserable.html

bglazer 5y ago

It might be helpful to specify more precisely what's distressing to you about this.

perplexedparent 5y ago
Well, my morose nature is to be distressed by most situations :-) But, I feel like it's typical for "average" parents to seek help for dealing with their gifted children. I've read a bit about that online. Haven't seen much about the opposite. Imagine a parent who is proud of their child's precocity. What's the opposite of pride? Shame? Do I feel some shame? Maybe a smidge. Love is definitely the predominant feeling. Thank God.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  You are ashamed your child is pretty much like every other child? Am I reading that right? That seems really strange. My tip would be to just let the child be average. Do you think your higher IQ has made you happier throughout your life? Nothing bad about being average.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mediumiqsad 5y ago
    OP's original post referenced this article [0] as a concern. [0] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-are-Palo-Alto-s-kids-killing-themselves-6270854.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Why-are-Palo-Alto-s-k... Are they concerned about depression because he's afraid his daughter won't be smart enough? Do they think 68% of the population within 1 SD of the mean IQ are suicidal, or should be?

danamit 5y ago

It's totally okay, I don't know why you should care. IQ is not some moral value. Support her in life, and make sure she gets a job that get her by in life without much suffering, and be glad you have a daughter that's mentally well.

ggm 5y ago

IQ testing and "gifted" labelling is as toxic as any other. Look at how many prodigies say life was distorted. Keep bright kids active, extended? Sure. But maintain links to your peer group. The cohort of people in the beyond normal bucket is tiny. Building dreams by hothousing is intellectual child abuse in most cases. Every "mensa" child I knew as a kid was an arrogant fuckhead. (I'm average, or below. Content.) My dad was super smart. He didn't push us. He said "regression tends to the mean" at the time, which I didn't understand but maybe now I do kinda. Aspire to be socially average but above normal productive, and maximise what you have judiciously

gwbas1c 5y ago

Remember that she's only a child, and has talents that are different than yours. Don't expect her to live up to who you are, because she's not you. Try to remember what it was like to be a kid. Make time to organize playdates and discuss behavior and development with her peers' parents. You'll find that it's easy to normalize her behavior when you realize that everyone struggles with their kids.

mediumiqsad 5y ago

This post makes me really sad. I wonder if my parents thought this about me when I was growing up. My dad's pretty smart,and probably knew I was dumb when I couldn't beat him at chess/mental math when I was younger. My mom and sister were voracious readers but I never was. Like your daughter, I'm average. I didn't go to an elite university. I make average pay and don't own a Mercedes. What's bad about that? Do you have pity on average people like me, who make up the vast majority of the population?

nichochar 5y ago

In my experience, attitude trumps IQ in pretty much all situations. Most humans are average in what they do. Potential doesn't matter, only reality does. Focusing on potential is what arrogant people that are lazy like to do, but mostly no one else cares. You are the perfect example: > I am now a below-average performer at an elite company Teach her to have mentality of curiosity, lifelong learning and humility and everything will be just fine.

autopilotlife 5y ago

OP, I'd really, really recommend that you are able to answer these questions before you start projecting assumptions, wishes, or expected failure onto a pre-schooler: - are you happy, right now? - are you living a life that you chose? - what makes you happy - what makes a live "well-lived"? I have this growing pit in my stomach right now that I just can't shake. Your IQ is high and you make a ton of money... and I doubt I'd trade places with you for any material possession on this Earth. You have a daughter to help guide through the world and you're on HN having an unspecified anxiety about a capricious measurement, of a 4 year old, that is widely accepted by thoughtful folks to be a largely unuseful metric. I suspect that maybe you're wondering about the legitimacy of those tests, questioning your own results, wondering what this means for her... and I really hope you can see that how you process this is going to affect how you treat her. That is going to affect her so much more than an IQ test done at 4, it's really worrisome to me that you can't see the forest for the trees. I always feel most loved by my parent, and most at peace with my path to find happiness in life, when they tell me "Whatever, we just want you to be happy.". It's what they said when I came out. It's what they said when I stepped back from a promising career because despite... the exceptional status and money I had... I was being under-valued, disrespected and made to do thoughtless techno-capital work. The self-doubt I already had from societal expectations would've crushed me if they had leaned into it and admonished me. I hope in your heart you realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness is far more important than projecting your unexamined internalized expectations onto her.

perplexedparent 5y ago
> realize that helping your daughter navigate life and find happiness That's precisely what I'm working on here. There are countless guides for "average parents with gifted child." There are no guides for "gifted parents with average child".
- mediumiqsad 5y ago
  You raise them like any other child. I've never seen a question like this.
- 5y ago

tough 5y ago

Got 150, Im a mess never finished school, never did any study. Can code somehow which in this market is enough

emteycz 5y ago
Same here The more IQ the more mental illness
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- freedom2099 5y ago
  I don’t know… I was tested when I was 12 yo and got a 142, I am an extremely balanced, relaxed and happy person. Great self esteem too.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Better than winning a roulette, congratulations.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> but due to some difficulties in preschool, underwent some tests and has an IQ of 102. That's an average-ish result, so it probably isn't the source of the problems in preschool. OTOH whatever the unidentified source of those problems is may be depressing the results of the IQ assessment. (While IQ tests generally have decent test-retest consistency, there are definitely factors other than what they are intended to test that can impact them, and the kinds of other things that would lead to problems for which an IQ test would be part of the diagnostic response definitely include them.) In this scenario, were it me, “my child has a test showing average intelligence” would not be a major concern.

emteycz 5y ago

IQ is bullshit, don't put any importance whatsoever on it.

Bostonian 5y ago
There is much psychometric research contradicting this. Some authors are Ian Deary, Arthur Jensen, and Charles Murray.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- emteycz 5y ago
  I don't believe that for a minute. I taught "dumb" kids with all Fs programming and now they're just as good as the best 150+ IQ guys. I bet their IQ test results increased significantly (I know for sure about 3 cases of big increase of 25+ points) . IQ is bullshit, you can't change my mind. I'm fully convinced it's 100% dependent on parents and environment and can be changed (given enough determination) at any point in life. Anybody can be taught programming, and programmers have good IQ test results - both of these statements have proven true to me again and again.

rkk3 5y ago

Pre-school? Seems a bit early to be worried about their standardized test performance. It's a lot of theater to justify your tuition fee. But even if they have a lower test score (than you wanted)when they are 3/4/5 years old, so what? Don't be fatalistic, they have a lot of growing to do & need your support.

ed-209 5y ago

Overtimegoal 5y ago

I have three children - all now adults with successful careers. The oldest was a voracious reader from very early on. Headstrong and made lots of mistakes but is now a successful ice cream entrepreneur. Middle child was/is mathematically gifted. Kept him in sports - hockey, soccer, track, snowboarding - to balance the intellectual and keep him from getting bored. He's now a developer at a startup. My youngest turned out to be the weakest intellectually. Always struggled with school. But she worked hard (unlike the other two) and was always creative. She is now a UX designer at a big consulting firm and will probably do the best of all three because she learned how to work hard and has a flare for design that resonates. You can never tell what path they will take, so just encourage them whenever they show interest in something - even if it's not what you're into.