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It’s easy to have outrage in retrospect, but during the early days of the pandemic it seemed that every business would be decimated. You also have to remember t

It’s easy to have outrage in retrospect, but during the early days of the pandemic it seemed that every business would be decimated. You also have to remember that lawyers and accountants and these types of businesses you deem unworthy have lots of support staff, many of which would have been fired but for PPP funds. I seriously question $80b being labeled as waste or even fraud. We look back now and can say lots of businesses didn’t need the funds, but only because programs like PPP stabilized the entire economy and created enough confidence to handle the transition. So we as a society spent $80b but avoid Trillions of harm from what would have been the worst recession in two generations. Seems like a good trade.

blantonl 5y ago
Look, I definitely understand the purpose of the PPP program - and that was to get money flowing into the economy so that basic economics occurred - the flow of money in exchange for goods and services. And I definitely don't deem lawyers and accountants unworthy... but when you see real estate agents do 100M in sales last year and they drive a brand new S-Class, and oh, look, that agent took the max 48K PPP loan and had it forgiven, well, that's just not the spirit of the program. When you get a chance, just poke around your local zip code and check out the people and entities that got money. It will be eye opening for sure. I'll bet you money you'll see a bunch of opaque shell LLCs all around you that got 10-20k here and there. You'll also see your local bakery or pizza joint that probably got life saving funding to keep people employed. I guess for me it all goes back to the spirit of the program, and the depths that some humans will go to be greedy and take the "FU I've Got Mine" approach to life.
- digitaltrees 5y ago
  But by focusing on these types of issues there is risk of a chilling effect that will make it impossible to pursue these types of programs or have people accept these programs for fear of being prosecuted simply my accepting funds that are permitted but then vilified after the fact. I suggest instead on focusing on the massive benefit they had. Any waste or abuse is part of the cost of a program and should be accepted as unavoidable. Same thing with a lot of other programs like Medicare or social security. Sure there are abuses but elder and child poverty are almost entirely eradicated compared to a few generations ago and waste and fraud are a small percentage of those programs. Yet critics make it seem like some profound injustice that must be dealt with. Why? Why must we deal with it? Honestly I don’t think a real estate agent driving an s-class and getting a PPP loan is a problem. The funds could only be forgiven if the funds were used for payroll so it’s likely the money went to a secretary or other employee. Even if it didn’t and went to the business owner directly I think the overall benefit to society and economy still outweigh any violation of justice or fairness. The business continued to exist, spend money and by goods and services. And ultimately pay taxes. An agent doing $100m in sales pays plenty of taxes so $48k is a refund to promote continuing employment in the midsts of a profound public health crisis, seem like good policy to me.
  - blantonl 5y ago
    But by focusing on these types of issues there is risk of a chilling effect That's the thing. I took pause and said.. you know, Mnuchin looked me directly in the eye on TV and said "Take the Money. Do it." But I didn't, because, well, I know damn well at some point it wasn't going to be a good look for businesses that are doing extremely well to justify taking free government money. And that's what happened. I lot of big businesses got roasted. And don't get me started on the political aspects of some of the people that literally look down on people in need and then gleefully rake in the cash from the government. But I also get the fact that many businesses were mandated to be closed or shutdown, and this could be considered payment from the government for those interruptions to businesses that otherwise would have been fine. Good points all around. Thanks for the excellent differing perspective.

blantonl 5y ago

Look, I definitely understand the purpose of the PPP program - and that was to get money flowing into the economy so that basic economics occurred - the flow of money in exchange for goods and services. And I definitely don't deem lawyers and accountants unworthy... but when you see real estate agents do 100M in sales last year and they drive a brand new S-Class, and oh, look, that agent took the max 48K PPP loan and had it forgiven, well, that's just not the spirit of the program. When you get a chance, just poke around your local zip code and check out the people and entities that got money. It will be eye opening for sure. I'll bet you money you'll see a bunch of opaque shell LLCs all around you that got 10-20k here and there. You'll also see your local bakery or pizza joint that probably got life saving funding to keep people employed. I guess for me it all goes back to the spirit of the program, and the depths that some humans will go to be greedy and take the "FU I've Got Mine" approach to life.

digitaltrees 5y ago
But by focusing on these types of issues there is risk of a chilling effect that will make it impossible to pursue these types of programs or have people accept these programs for fear of being prosecuted simply my accepting funds that are permitted but then vilified after the fact. I suggest instead on focusing on the massive benefit they had. Any waste or abuse is part of the cost of a program and should be accepted as unavoidable. Same thing with a lot of other programs like Medicare or social security. Sure there are abuses but elder and child poverty are almost entirely eradicated compared to a few generations ago and waste and fraud are a small percentage of those programs. Yet critics make it seem like some profound injustice that must be dealt with. Why? Why must we deal with it? Honestly I don’t think a real estate agent driving an s-class and getting a PPP loan is a problem. The funds could only be forgiven if the funds were used for payroll so it’s likely the money went to a secretary or other employee. Even if it didn’t and went to the business owner directly I think the overall benefit to society and economy still outweigh any violation of justice or fairness. The business continued to exist, spend money and by goods and services. And ultimately pay taxes. An agent doing $100m in sales pays plenty of taxes so $48k is a refund to promote continuing employment in the midsts of a profound public health crisis, seem like good policy to me.
- blantonl 5y ago
  But by focusing on these types of issues there is risk of a chilling effect That's the thing. I took pause and said.. you know, Mnuchin looked me directly in the eye on TV and said "Take the Money. Do it." But I didn't, because, well, I know damn well at some point it wasn't going to be a good look for businesses that are doing extremely well to justify taking free government money. And that's what happened. I lot of big businesses got roasted. And don't get me started on the political aspects of some of the people that literally look down on people in need and then gleefully rake in the cash from the government. But I also get the fact that many businesses were mandated to be closed or shutdown, and this could be considered payment from the government for those interruptions to businesses that otherwise would have been fine. Good points all around. Thanks for the excellent differing perspective.