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>"- vertically integrated and sells a very narrow selection of hardware" Or maybe this really is just the 10%, as we will both agree that this part is also tru

>"- vertically integrated and sells a very narrow selection of hardware" Or maybe this really is just the 10%, as we will both agree that this part is also true for every single Windows PC laptop OEM - Dell, HP, Lenovo, Asus, Acer etc.

danaris 5y ago
That's....not even remotely true. First of all, they are by definition not vertically integrated, because the same company doesn't create the hardware and the OS. Second of all, have you actually compared the selection of hardware between Apple and any of these brands? I'll admit it's been a little while since I tried to give someone recommendations on a Windows machine, but the selection is just dizzying, and not in a helpful "here are all the different possible variables you could configure, and here are the possible values for them" way. They have (or, as I said, had) multiple different named lines within each product category, and several models within each line, and then each model has different possible configurations. And unless you're the kind of person who has already studied the components enough to be able to build your own computer, you're not going to be able to easily tell, "Which of these actually has the most of the things I am looking for?" Meanwhile, Apple's product lines aren't quite as simple as they once were, but they're still very straightforward. It's generally quite clear what the tradeoffs are when you're comparing between any give pair of devices in their lineup.
- daneel_w 5y ago
  >First of all, they are by definition not vertically integrated, because the same company doesn't create the hardware and the OS. What matters is that they put the combined product through mostly the same testing. While the PC OEMs have only some to say about Windows' direction, they have the same experience picking components and integrating for Windows as Apple has for macOS.
  - danaris 5y ago
    That's still missing the point. Apple isn't just "picking components and integrating". They make the whole thing from scratch to work together.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    > What matters is that they put the combined product through mostly the same testing. No. Not even close. You'd be surprised at the level of testing most OEMs do. It is not zero but at the same time it is not at the same level as Apple. Apple controls the SMC and Firmware/UEFI. Dell, HP, etc buys the one that comes with the board. Apple "hand picks" most of the components. Few PCs are custom designs, most are OEM designs.
    - daneel_w 5y ago
      Please stop making this sound like OEM PC laptops are "in the wind" and almost to the point of just getting lucky with the final platform. It's an absurd discrediting of the decades of experience and work going into them.
      - rbreaves 5y ago
        But that’s a true assessment despite all that’s on paper there’s a lot left to chance in actual use. Will the trackpad use Windows Precision or won’t it? Will the screen be decent or won’t it? Will the battery life suck or won’t it? There’s numerous quality of life question any Windows will have to ask before even getting to the actual specs of CPU, RAM & GPU.

danaris 5y ago

That's....not even remotely true. First of all, they are by definition not vertically integrated, because the same company doesn't create the hardware and the OS. Second of all, have you actually compared the selection of hardware between Apple and any of these brands? I'll admit it's been a little while since I tried to give someone recommendations on a Windows machine, but the selection is just dizzying, and not in a helpful "here are all the different possible variables you could configure, and here are the possible values for them" way. They have (or, as I said, had) multiple different named lines within each product category, and several models within each line, and then each model has different possible configurations. And unless you're the kind of person who has already studied the components enough to be able to build your own computer, you're not going to be able to easily tell, "Which of these actually has the most of the things I am looking for?" Meanwhile, Apple's product lines aren't quite as simple as they once were, but they're still very straightforward. It's generally quite clear what the tradeoffs are when you're comparing between any give pair of devices in their lineup.

daneel_w 5y ago
>First of all, they are by definition not vertically integrated, because the same company doesn't create the hardware and the OS. What matters is that they put the combined product through mostly the same testing. While the PC OEMs have only some to say about Windows' direction, they have the same experience picking components and integrating for Windows as Apple has for macOS.
- danaris 5y ago
  That's still missing the point. Apple isn't just "picking components and integrating". They make the whole thing from scratch to work together.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > What matters is that they put the combined product through mostly the same testing. No. Not even close. You'd be surprised at the level of testing most OEMs do. It is not zero but at the same time it is not at the same level as Apple. Apple controls the SMC and Firmware/UEFI. Dell, HP, etc buys the one that comes with the board. Apple "hand picks" most of the components. Few PCs are custom designs, most are OEM designs.
  - daneel_w 5y ago
    Please stop making this sound like OEM PC laptops are "in the wind" and almost to the point of just getting lucky with the final platform. It's an absurd discrediting of the decades of experience and work going into them.
    - rbreaves 5y ago
      But that’s a true assessment despite all that’s on paper there’s a lot left to chance in actual use. Will the trackpad use Windows Precision or won’t it? Will the screen be decent or won’t it? Will the battery life suck or won’t it? There’s numerous quality of life question any Windows will have to ask before even getting to the actual specs of CPU, RAM & GPU.