6 ms·

A friend of mine sent me a link to this article and said > Yugal Raj Jain. He’ll be fine in India. Indians will understand what my friend meant by that.

LordAtlas 5y ago
All too well, unfortunately.
rognjen 5y ago
It'd benefit the discussion in a forum filled with non-Indians if you explained what he meant. But I assume it's a caste-thing...
- nindalf 5y ago
  It would benefit the non Indians, certainly. And it’d also get me flagged. But what the hell, I’ll say it. OP is an upper caste male. You won’t see many “India is doing great! I’m heading back there!” posts from Indian women or Indian Muslims or Indian Dalits. That’s what I meant. I’m similar to the OP in that I’m an upper caste male as well. The difference between me and him is that I can understand and empathise with the difficulties faced by people different from me.
  - nomemory 5y ago
    Why do you think he is not capable of showing empathy to the people different than him.
    - nindalf 5y ago
      A person speaking about the opportunities in India solely based on VC funding while speaking about none of the downsides to people different than him gives me that impression. And the downsides for people different from him and me are numerous, if you open your eyes to it. OP could be a remarkably empathic and kind person for all I know. But this post doesn’t show it.
  - tempo3040 5y ago
    - nindalf 5y ago
      Hahaha, new account created 11 minutes ago. Tell me why I should even dignify your blatant whataboutism with a response. Meanwhile me, 8 year old account with 11k karma. I have the courage to say what I want tied to this identity while you don’t.
  - Dharmakirti 5y ago
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There are tons of posts by Indian women, Muslims and Dalits that show that they’re also ascendant, but if you only look at -ve aspects you will always find dirt. I grew up in rural area and I’m not a savarna. I studied in Govt institutions and most of my non-Savarna batch mates are doing just fine. We don’t need savarna apologists to tell us what is the ground reality.
    - nindalf 5y ago
      > There are tons of posts Ok, go ahead and link 5 of them. Hyperlinks on the internet are free :)
      - Dharmakirti 5y ago
        It’s telling that you skipped the real criticisms about your toxic empathy and lack of solutions to the casteism problem. Grovelling in firanghi forums and seeking gora validation by finger pointing will not help eliminate the problem in rural India. Avarnas are not a karma farms for savarnas on the internet.
        nindalf 5y ago
        Yeah that’s what I thought. Not even a single one of the “tonnes of links” you promised. > toxic empathy What does this even mean, hahaha. Because I point out that life is difficult for women in India, that’s toxic? Pointing out that all the women I know who have emigrated don’t want to move back unless they’re guilted into caring for family, that’s toxic? You throwing casteist slurs (“savarna”, twice) my way, accusing me of doing this for farming karma, that’s not toxic? I have 11000 karma, you have 22. Karma isn’t even something I think about unless someone brings it up. It just passively increases. I certainly didn’t point out the shortcomings of OPs article for the 20 (?) karma I supposedly farmed on this thread.
        Dharmakirti 5y ago
  - mama123 5y ago
    My suspicion here is that most people who bring up "caste" or Anti-Modi here on HN are not Hindus at all. Usually "upper caste" christians, Ashraf muslims/Paki or pro-congress children of super rich or super powerful bureaucrats who benefited greatly from the previous corrupt regime.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
s5300 5y ago
I’m not Indian & barely know about the place, but I’m still near certain this is reference to the caste system. Caste system is ungodly fucked. I once had an otherwise super hippy in the US explain to me why the caste system is totally okay because of “centuries of religion” or some weird shit like that. Anybody who advocates for the continuity of the caste system is irredeemable scum in my book. Unfortunately, for me, I think that writes off a lot of people as irredeemable scum. Maybe I’m the baddie.
- fellellor 5y ago
  You should go visit other countries and talk to more people. He’s a Jain. Jain is not a caste. Not all Jains are filthy rich. In fact, his being Jain has nothing to do with his finances. Having worked in Tesla is more indicative.
  - nindalf 5y ago
    This comment is obtuse. Sure, technically Jain is not a caste, but all Jains and Parsees are considered equivalent to Hindu upper castes. No one will decline to drink water offered to them by a Jain. That is something that still happens to Dalits in India today, in urban areas as well.
    - Dharmakirti 5y ago
      the deracination in this comment is astounding. I grew up in rural India all my life and this cartoonish casteism is no longer part of the mainstream Indian society. There will be isolated cases, but I’ve seen times and again people freely drinking water from a _pyau_ irrespective of the caste of the person. I implore you to take a rational look at Indian society and not rely on WaPo/NYT to know your own land.
      - nindalf 5y ago
        Yeah I thought one of you would come and say this. Here’s a video that you might find illuminating. - Caste Conundrum: Why do upper castes believe discrimination doesn’t exist? - https://youtu.be/vjt8aBoejho https://youtu.be/vjt8aBoejho (1.4M views). You speak of NYT/WaPo. This was published by an Indian newspaper ThePrint. Now you might be thinking, that can’t be right. I’ve lived in India for a long time, I know it isn’t like this. That’s ok, I used to think like that too. Until I saw a map of india overlayed with the extent of untouchability practised in each district. Turns out, I lived in a district where it was barely prevalent. Here was me, living in one corner of India for decades and extrapolating that to the rest of India. Don’t make the same mistake I did. You can find that map and see how prevalent this abhorrent practice is in the beginning of this video - What Hathras tells us about Casteism in India - https://youtu.be/ELbdGh0-4T4 https://youtu.be/ELbdGh0-4T4. Both videos are mostly in Hindi, with English subtitles. I hope that’s ok.
rushikesh98 5y ago
Indian here. I don't understand what your friend meant. Can you please elaborate?
- nindalf 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966521
- Dharmakirti 5y ago
  Thus is a dog whistle for casteism. This is a standard modus operendi of a certain section of opinionated people to drag caste into any discussion about India. Caste is a complex topic but this discussion has nothing to do with it.
  - nindalf 5y ago
    Haha, that term doesn’t mean what you think it means. But it’s alright. My point was that OP reckons India is great to return to. And I agree, it is! As long as you’re an upper caste male, like OP and I are. And even if that makes you uncomfortable, it is pertinent to the discussion of whether someone should go back to India. Ironically, people like you insisting we shouldn’t discuss caste only makes this conclusion even more certain. We can’t fix what we won’t discuss.
    - Dharmakirti 5y ago
      No we should definitely discuss and eliminate casteism, no disagreement on that. But you don’t comment “White male privilege” in all the other posts, right?
      - Infinitesimus 5y ago
        Well, OP just said they're not a white male so this shouldn't be surprising. They're commenting on something they likely understand better.
shasts 5y ago
A lot of heated discussion on this thread! I don't have much to add other than already said before. I would like to add an anecdote though. We have been considering going back and discussed this with some of the folks who came to Germany recently, where we live. They think we are crazy to go back now, as a Muslim. I can see tons of new folks come to Germany now, many of them Dalits and Muslims on blue card work permit. Almost all of them have the same thing to say. If you are an upper caste, Hindi speaking elite class, then you wouldn't see it. But if you are a Tamil, Dalit or Muslim then it is obviously frustrating to see the agenda the current central government is executing. So we have kept the decision on hold.
- pm90 5y ago
  I am so sorry to hear that and that India has become so right wing. It’s absolutely disgusting that you have to be in this situation: your Nation of birth is yours just as much as anyone else’s. Considering all the secular bs that they teach in school, this makes me really sad and disappointed.

LordAtlas 5y ago

All too well, unfortunately.

rognjen 5y ago

It'd benefit the discussion in a forum filled with non-Indians if you explained what he meant. But I assume it's a caste-thing...

nindalf 5y ago
It would benefit the non Indians, certainly. And it’d also get me flagged. But what the hell, I’ll say it. OP is an upper caste male. You won’t see many “India is doing great! I’m heading back there!” posts from Indian women or Indian Muslims or Indian Dalits. That’s what I meant. I’m similar to the OP in that I’m an upper caste male as well. The difference between me and him is that I can understand and empathise with the difficulties faced by people different from me.
- nomemory 5y ago
  Why do you think he is not capable of showing empathy to the people different than him.
  - nindalf 5y ago
    A person speaking about the opportunities in India solely based on VC funding while speaking about none of the downsides to people different than him gives me that impression. And the downsides for people different from him and me are numerous, if you open your eyes to it. OP could be a remarkably empathic and kind person for all I know. But this post doesn’t show it.
- tempo3040 5y ago
  - nindalf 5y ago
    Hahaha, new account created 11 minutes ago. Tell me why I should even dignify your blatant whataboutism with a response. Meanwhile me, 8 year old account with 11k karma. I have the courage to say what I want tied to this identity while you don’t.
- Dharmakirti 5y ago
  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There are tons of posts by Indian women, Muslims and Dalits that show that they’re also ascendant, but if you only look at -ve aspects you will always find dirt. I grew up in rural area and I’m not a savarna. I studied in Govt institutions and most of my non-Savarna batch mates are doing just fine. We don’t need savarna apologists to tell us what is the ground reality.
  - nindalf 5y ago
    > There are tons of posts Ok, go ahead and link 5 of them. Hyperlinks on the internet are free :)
    - Dharmakirti 5y ago
      It’s telling that you skipped the real criticisms about your toxic empathy and lack of solutions to the casteism problem. Grovelling in firanghi forums and seeking gora validation by finger pointing will not help eliminate the problem in rural India. Avarnas are not a karma farms for savarnas on the internet.
      - nindalf 5y ago
        Yeah that’s what I thought. Not even a single one of the “tonnes of links” you promised. > toxic empathy What does this even mean, hahaha. Because I point out that life is difficult for women in India, that’s toxic? Pointing out that all the women I know who have emigrated don’t want to move back unless they’re guilted into caring for family, that’s toxic? You throwing casteist slurs (“savarna”, twice) my way, accusing me of doing this for farming karma, that’s not toxic? I have 11000 karma, you have 22. Karma isn’t even something I think about unless someone brings it up. It just passively increases. I certainly didn’t point out the shortcomings of OPs article for the 20 (?) karma I supposedly farmed on this thread.
        Dharmakirti 5y ago
- mama123 5y ago
  My suspicion here is that most people who bring up "caste" or Anti-Modi here on HN are not Hindus at all. Usually "upper caste" christians, Ashraf muslims/Paki or pro-congress children of super rich or super powerful bureaucrats who benefited greatly from the previous corrupt regime.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

s5300 5y ago

I’m not Indian & barely know about the place, but I’m still near certain this is reference to the caste system. Caste system is ungodly fucked. I once had an otherwise super hippy in the US explain to me why the caste system is totally okay because of “centuries of religion” or some weird shit like that. Anybody who advocates for the continuity of the caste system is irredeemable scum in my book. Unfortunately, for me, I think that writes off a lot of people as irredeemable scum. Maybe I’m the baddie.

fellellor 5y ago
You should go visit other countries and talk to more people. He’s a Jain. Jain is not a caste. Not all Jains are filthy rich. In fact, his being Jain has nothing to do with his finances. Having worked in Tesla is more indicative.
- nindalf 5y ago
  This comment is obtuse. Sure, technically Jain is not a caste, but all Jains and Parsees are considered equivalent to Hindu upper castes. No one will decline to drink water offered to them by a Jain. That is something that still happens to Dalits in India today, in urban areas as well.
  - Dharmakirti 5y ago
    the deracination in this comment is astounding. I grew up in rural India all my life and this cartoonish casteism is no longer part of the mainstream Indian society. There will be isolated cases, but I’ve seen times and again people freely drinking water from a _pyau_ irrespective of the caste of the person. I implore you to take a rational look at Indian society and not rely on WaPo/NYT to know your own land.
    - nindalf 5y ago
      Yeah I thought one of you would come and say this. Here’s a video that you might find illuminating. - Caste Conundrum: Why do upper castes believe discrimination doesn’t exist? - https://youtu.be/vjt8aBoejho https://youtu.be/vjt8aBoejho (1.4M views). You speak of NYT/WaPo. This was published by an Indian newspaper ThePrint. Now you might be thinking, that can’t be right. I’ve lived in India for a long time, I know it isn’t like this. That’s ok, I used to think like that too. Until I saw a map of india overlayed with the extent of untouchability practised in each district. Turns out, I lived in a district where it was barely prevalent. Here was me, living in one corner of India for decades and extrapolating that to the rest of India. Don’t make the same mistake I did. You can find that map and see how prevalent this abhorrent practice is in the beginning of this video - What Hathras tells us about Casteism in India - https://youtu.be/ELbdGh0-4T4 https://youtu.be/ELbdGh0-4T4. Both videos are mostly in Hindi, with English subtitles. I hope that’s ok.

rushikesh98 5y ago

Indian here. I don't understand what your friend meant. Can you please elaborate?

nindalf 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30966521
Dharmakirti 5y ago
Thus is a dog whistle for casteism. This is a standard modus operendi of a certain section of opinionated people to drag caste into any discussion about India. Caste is a complex topic but this discussion has nothing to do with it.
- nindalf 5y ago
  Haha, that term doesn’t mean what you think it means. But it’s alright. My point was that OP reckons India is great to return to. And I agree, it is! As long as you’re an upper caste male, like OP and I are. And even if that makes you uncomfortable, it is pertinent to the discussion of whether someone should go back to India. Ironically, people like you insisting we shouldn’t discuss caste only makes this conclusion even more certain. We can’t fix what we won’t discuss.
  - Dharmakirti 5y ago
    No we should definitely discuss and eliminate casteism, no disagreement on that. But you don’t comment “White male privilege” in all the other posts, right?
    - Infinitesimus 5y ago
      Well, OP just said they're not a white male so this shouldn't be surprising. They're commenting on something they likely understand better.

shasts 5y ago

A lot of heated discussion on this thread! I don't have much to add other than already said before. I would like to add an anecdote though. We have been considering going back and discussed this with some of the folks who came to Germany recently, where we live. They think we are crazy to go back now, as a Muslim. I can see tons of new folks come to Germany now, many of them Dalits and Muslims on blue card work permit. Almost all of them have the same thing to say. If you are an upper caste, Hindi speaking elite class, then you wouldn't see it. But if you are a Tamil, Dalit or Muslim then it is obviously frustrating to see the agenda the current central government is executing. So we have kept the decision on hold.

pm90 5y ago
I am so sorry to hear that and that India has become so right wing. It’s absolutely disgusting that you have to be in this situation: your Nation of birth is yours just as much as anyone else’s. Considering all the secular bs that they teach in school, this makes me really sad and disappointed.