3 ms·

Have you looked at this?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_density_in_energy_storage_and_in_fuel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#

Have you looked at this?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_density_in_energy_storage_and_in_fuel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_density_i... Energy density Energy density by mass (MJ/kg) by volume (MJ/L) Gasoline 46.9 34.6 Lithium ion battery 0.72 1.9 Lead acid battery 0.11 0.17 Compressed air in fiber-wound bottle at 200 bar (at 24°C) 0.1 0.1 compressed air in steel bottle at 200 bar (at 24°C) 0.04 0.1

DaniFong 18y ago
Yes, we have. We're not intending to use 200 bar air, and we have to aim at a substantially more efficient vehicle, and even then we need a much larger tank than normal. But compared to batteries they're very, very cheap. We think we can hit the range required, and that's what really matters.
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  There are 700-bar tanks. What are you aiming for? and we have to aim at a substantially more efficient vehicle Against which car models (once you are done marketing the scooter) are you intending for your car to compete? Camry/Accord? But compared to batteries they're very, very cheap. What tank-prices are you figuring? $4,000? http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogen+car+tank+costs http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogen+car+tank+costs
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    We'd scale from 300 to 700 bar as the market allows. In the Asian market, for example, range and bulk is less of an issue than cost. We're actually aiming at creating a scooter first, and other vehicles later. The hydrogen tanks are much more sophisticated than we need. In particular they require a plastic liner (because hydrogen is so damned small). We just need carbon fiber wound tanks. These are manufactured to a higher precision but are not fundamentally different from 300 bar tanks which are fairly cheap (ie: you can buy single quantities of 9 L tanks for $500 - $600). It's only a guess, but we think we can keep the tank price for a scooter below $1000, and for a car, below $3000. This is dependent on carbon fiber prices, and how efficient we can make the engine and drivetrain. The important thing is that we can expect prices to improve handsomely while t goes to infinity, whereas batteries have had a lot of the manufacturing improvements that they're going to get.
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  But compared to batteries they're very, very cheap. Lead-acid batteries can do something that air-tanks might not do as well: provide ballast. http://www.google.com/search?q=commuter+cars+ballasted+patent http://www.google.com/search?q=commuter+cars+ballasted+paten...
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    Empirically, when you improve the weight of a car by a factor of 10% it improves the fuel usage by a factor of nearly 8%. Ballast is an expensive way to get stability.
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  This is interesting: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22modern+car%22+%22million+parts%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22modern+car%22+%22million+p... ... a modern car involves as many as 30000 component parts In light of the fact that in a modern car there are about 2000–3000 galvanised parts
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    Modern cars are quite complicated devices, even if the median vehicle contains no technical innovation at all. This is one reason we're doing a scooter first.

DaniFong 18y ago

Yes, we have. We're not intending to use 200 bar air, and we have to aim at a substantially more efficient vehicle, and even then we need a much larger tank than normal. But compared to batteries they're very, very cheap. We think we can hit the range required, and that's what really matters.

DabAsteroid 18y ago
There are 700-bar tanks. What are you aiming for? and we have to aim at a substantially more efficient vehicle Against which car models (once you are done marketing the scooter) are you intending for your car to compete? Camry/Accord? But compared to batteries they're very, very cheap. What tank-prices are you figuring? $4,000? http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogen+car+tank+costs http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogen+car+tank+costs
- DaniFong 18y ago
  We'd scale from 300 to 700 bar as the market allows. In the Asian market, for example, range and bulk is less of an issue than cost. We're actually aiming at creating a scooter first, and other vehicles later. The hydrogen tanks are much more sophisticated than we need. In particular they require a plastic liner (because hydrogen is so damned small). We just need carbon fiber wound tanks. These are manufactured to a higher precision but are not fundamentally different from 300 bar tanks which are fairly cheap (ie: you can buy single quantities of 9 L tanks for $500 - $600). It's only a guess, but we think we can keep the tank price for a scooter below $1000, and for a car, below $3000. This is dependent on carbon fiber prices, and how efficient we can make the engine and drivetrain. The important thing is that we can expect prices to improve handsomely while t goes to infinity, whereas batteries have had a lot of the manufacturing improvements that they're going to get.
DabAsteroid 18y ago
But compared to batteries they're very, very cheap. Lead-acid batteries can do something that air-tanks might not do as well: provide ballast. http://www.google.com/search?q=commuter+cars+ballasted+patent http://www.google.com/search?q=commuter+cars+ballasted+paten...
- DaniFong 18y ago
  Empirically, when you improve the weight of a car by a factor of 10% it improves the fuel usage by a factor of nearly 8%. Ballast is an expensive way to get stability.
DabAsteroid 18y ago
This is interesting: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22modern+car%22+%22million+parts%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22modern+car%22+%22million+p... ... a modern car involves as many as 30000 component parts In light of the fact that in a modern car there are about 2000–3000 galvanised parts
- DaniFong 18y ago
  Modern cars are quite complicated devices, even if the median vehicle contains no technical innovation at all. This is one reason we're doing a scooter first.