4 ms·

Until 'weird' and different becomes systemically shutting out minorities. People justify a lot of things they shouldn't

by ipaddr 5y ago

jakelazaroff 5y ago
If that happens, I’ll change my tune. I’m much more concerned with actual harm that’s currently happening than theoretical harm that may not even come to pass.
- TimeBearingDown 5y ago
  To be honest, I’m still quite bitter and resentful about losing the r/RightWingLGBT community. Vast majorities on a site like that are already self-censoring. The damage in terms of isolation and radicalization is already very real.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  You won't be around but the system you endorsed will cause pain for future victims you haven't considered.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    What assurances do you have that the system you endorse won't cause pain for future victims you haven't considered? If you're advocating a return to older internet status quo, I think we have solid evidence that it would cause pain.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      His system causes pain for the present and future. It is a system we know and have rejected. Another system may be worse but accepting his system assures pain for all now and in the future.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        > It is a system we know and have rejected. I think I need to know what definition you're writing from to have an opinion on that. Moderated public discourse is the rule, not the exception, in vast spaces of human communication. It's not perfect but usually good. In contrast, unfiltered bidirectional public communication can cause significant issues. It gave us 4chan and Reddit before the admins decided ad revenue was important to them.
- etherael 5y ago
  Can't you see the problem with holding as evidence your position of ignorance that anything is wrong with the situation as it stands, whilst the situation which you argue in support of is explicitly designed to impose that position of ignorance? It would be much the same as if you were blindfolded walking through a morgue and claiming that no death surrounds you because of your treasured blindfold. You can't even know there's a problem until you can properly see the situation you're in, and if you advocate for measures that allow the apparent imposition of a false reality, you can't use that apparent false reality as evidence that "everything is OK and no theoretical harm has come to pass". I fear nearly the entire world is awash in this nonsense and it gains purchase with every passing week. Everybody craves the illusion of normalcy and sees no sin in the truth being betrayed in pursuit of it, and then when that illusion falls away they scream blue murder that they were deceived, seemingly with complete ignorance of the fact that they begged for that deception, demanded its imposition, and vilified those who opposed it. The truth always outs eventually, you can only hide from it for so long. And all you buy in the hiding is license for those who need your ignorance to operate, with all the harm that implies.
  - jakelazaroff 5y ago
    Could you give me an actual example of harm that happened to an undeserving community as a result of these policies, then? I am entirely open to being wrong, if you can provide a counter example.
    - etherael 5y ago
      To ask the question misses the point entirely and demonstrates the malfunction; In the presence of what I claim to be this optimal regime of information restriction which has concealed instances of what I am seeking to be informed of, inform me of these instances. To cite just a few obvious examples from the past few years of social media censorship to cover up things the special interest groups in control of social media would rather have concealed; COVID Lab leak evidence, Hunter Biden laptop, Metabiota links, Ukraine Gas company positions, bribery being passed back up the chain, Daszak and EcoHealth alliance activities, etc. I know that all of these were vigorously attacked and suppressed over the past few years, and most people either knew nothing about them or believed them to be entirely false due to that active suppression, and they made critical life-changing decisions which altered the trajectory of the political and economic realities of the entire world based on those outright lies. And here we sit, raising them as examples for somebody who started from a position of claiming they were unaware such things even existed because of their vaunted and optimal information control regimes. Whether you react with an admission that you were clearly wrong or doubling-down on it because you dislike the implications of the above is once again beside the point; Censorship of this kind is absolutely unacceptable and intolerable. It is a wholesale license for the censoring parties to sculpt the views of everybody to that which best serves the censoring parties interests. Nothing more, nothing less.
idontwantthis 5y ago
First they came for the nazis and…I said “good”.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Then you realized they redefined nazis to mean you?
  - idontwantthis 5y ago
    If it happens I’ll tell you first.

Until 'weird' and different becomes systemically shutting out minorities. People justify a lot of things they shouldn't

by ipaddr 5y ago

Until 'weird' and different becomes systemically shutting out minorities. People justify a lot of things they shouldn't

If that happens, I’ll change my tune. I’m much more concerned with actual harm that’s currently happening than theoretical harm that may not even come to pass.

TimeBearingDown 5y ago
To be honest, I’m still quite bitter and resentful about losing the r/RightWingLGBT community. Vast majorities on a site like that are already self-censoring. The damage in terms of isolation and radicalization is already very real.
ipaddr 5y ago
You won't be around but the system you endorsed will cause pain for future victims you haven't considered.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  What assurances do you have that the system you endorse won't cause pain for future victims you haven't considered? If you're advocating a return to older internet status quo, I think we have solid evidence that it would cause pain.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    His system causes pain for the present and future. It is a system we know and have rejected. Another system may be worse but accepting his system assures pain for all now and in the future.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      > It is a system we know and have rejected. I think I need to know what definition you're writing from to have an opinion on that. Moderated public discourse is the rule, not the exception, in vast spaces of human communication. It's not perfect but usually good. In contrast, unfiltered bidirectional public communication can cause significant issues. It gave us 4chan and Reddit before the admins decided ad revenue was important to them.
etherael 5y ago
Can't you see the problem with holding as evidence your position of ignorance that anything is wrong with the situation as it stands, whilst the situation which you argue in support of is explicitly designed to impose that position of ignorance? It would be much the same as if you were blindfolded walking through a morgue and claiming that no death surrounds you because of your treasured blindfold. You can't even know there's a problem until you can properly see the situation you're in, and if you advocate for measures that allow the apparent imposition of a false reality, you can't use that apparent false reality as evidence that "everything is OK and no theoretical harm has come to pass". I fear nearly the entire world is awash in this nonsense and it gains purchase with every passing week. Everybody craves the illusion of normalcy and sees no sin in the truth being betrayed in pursuit of it, and then when that illusion falls away they scream blue murder that they were deceived, seemingly with complete ignorance of the fact that they begged for that deception, demanded its imposition, and vilified those who opposed it. The truth always outs eventually, you can only hide from it for so long. And all you buy in the hiding is license for those who need your ignorance to operate, with all the harm that implies.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  Could you give me an actual example of harm that happened to an undeserving community as a result of these policies, then? I am entirely open to being wrong, if you can provide a counter example.
  - etherael 5y ago
    To ask the question misses the point entirely and demonstrates the malfunction; In the presence of what I claim to be this optimal regime of information restriction which has concealed instances of what I am seeking to be informed of, inform me of these instances. To cite just a few obvious examples from the past few years of social media censorship to cover up things the special interest groups in control of social media would rather have concealed; COVID Lab leak evidence, Hunter Biden laptop, Metabiota links, Ukraine Gas company positions, bribery being passed back up the chain, Daszak and EcoHealth alliance activities, etc. I know that all of these were vigorously attacked and suppressed over the past few years, and most people either knew nothing about them or believed them to be entirely false due to that active suppression, and they made critical life-changing decisions which altered the trajectory of the political and economic realities of the entire world based on those outright lies. And here we sit, raising them as examples for somebody who started from a position of claiming they were unaware such things even existed because of their vaunted and optimal information control regimes. Whether you react with an admission that you were clearly wrong or doubling-down on it because you dislike the implications of the above is once again beside the point; Censorship of this kind is absolutely unacceptable and intolerable. It is a wholesale license for the censoring parties to sculpt the views of everybody to that which best serves the censoring parties interests. Nothing more, nothing less.

idontwantthis 5y ago

First they came for the nazis and…I said “good”.

ipaddr 5y ago
Then you realized they redefined nazis to mean you?
- idontwantthis 5y ago
  If it happens I’ll tell you first.