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I feel like the “teachers can’t pass a math test” thing was overblown. The issues were that A) the test had outcomes that heavily favored teachers who grew up

by 542458 5y ago

I feel like the “teachers can’t pass a math test” thing was overblown. The issues were that A) the test had outcomes that heavily favored teachers who grew up in Ontario and spoke English. Part of this is that there were no prep materials available at the time and no real description of what was on the test B) the province failed to demonstrate a need to use this particular test or that tests like this led to better student outcomes. For reference on A, here are some sample problems: Question 1: "Based on Learning For All, which is a shared goal or strategy of differentiated instruction and Universal Design for Learning? A) To use the same textbooks B) To use only whole-class instruction C) To meet different needs of the students in a class D) To meet the requirements for curriculum expectations" Question 6: "Assessment that occurs before a period of learning to assess a student's readiness for learning and learning preferences would be considered which of the following? A) assessment of learning B) assessment as learning C) assessment for learning D) assessment of learning skills" Question 15: "As outlined in Growing Success, how does Ontario’s criterion-referenced assessment and evaluation approach require teachers to assess and evaluate students’ work? A) by ranking student performance B) by comparing work done by other students C) by referencing performance standards developed by teachers for their own classrooms D) by referencing the established criteria for four levels of achievement that are standard across the province" Those aren’t basic math knowledge, those are trivia on the Ontario curriculum (and again, no prep material was available). If the province had demonstrated that this improved student outcomes the ruling may have been different.

thwayunion 5y ago
Re: Question 1, I know a lot about differentiated instruction but I have no clue what the hell the Capitalized Phrases are referring to. I could imagine knowing those these being important for a teacher. I could also imagine not. In any case, are those things covered in the required Ed courses? If so, this question seems fine. If not, it's a bad question. Re: Question 2, I know all the ins and outs of pre-assessment but have no idea which of these answers is supposed to be correct. Probably D but perhaps C? In any case, it doesn't seem like knowing the answer would improve or demonstrate my understanding of pre-assessment in any way. In fact, it's like a vocabulary test but the vocabulary term itself mostly just demonstrates that the conceptual framework you're being tested on was designed by folks who need to get much better at precision in communication! In any case, 100% pure trivia. More importantly, the lack of a thorough rubric and set of prep materials is egregiously embarrassing for an exam that specifically asks about pedagogy...
tootie 5y ago
Yeah the court ruled that it violated constitutional guidelines. Not that math teachers shouldn't be proficient at math. The person who wrote this letter probably knew all this and just wanted cover to express their unpopular political views.
- car_analogy 5y ago
  > Yeah the court ruled that it violated constitutional guidelines. Not that math teachers shouldn't be proficient at math. Right. Only that their proficiency mustn't be tested. Not with this test, anyway. They must use a hypothetical test where all groups perform equally well.
  - tootie 5y ago
    That's not the ruling. The ruling said the test was excluding minorities and the Constitution doesn't allow for exclusionary policy. All the judge can do is rule on the law. If the ruling holds up, then it goes back to the legislature to come up with something else or change the law. The judge can't make new rules or apply their own opinion on how things should be. If you disagree, your quarrel is with whoever wrote this part of the Constitution.
    - car_analogy 5y ago
      > The ruling said the test was excluding minorities and the Constitution doesn't allow for exclusionary policy. Yes, it's a common tactic to use the most abstract terms to obscure the meaning of policies and rulings like these. Lets be more concrete: the test was excluding minorities how?
      - tootie 5y ago
        Doesn't matter. The law doesn't require the exclusion to be intentional or even explicable. It's purely based on outcomes.
        5y ago
pseudo0 5y ago
You appear to have selected only questions from the "pedagogy" section of the test, which is only 30% of the questions. Pedagogy is also presumably taught as part of the teaching degree that the test-takers complete. Here is a link to some full practice tests: https://mathproficiencytest.ca/#/en/sample-questions-pre https://mathproficiencytest.ca/#/en/sample-questions-pre The math questions are incredibly simple, and I'm astonished that people planning to become teachers had the chutzpah to complain about having to do middle-school math, let alone challenge it in court. The fact that they won is shameful for everyone involved.
- 542458 5y ago
  To pass one must get a 70% separately on both the pedagogy and non-pedagogy section of the test. It doesn't matter what percentage of the questions are pedagogy, since it's marked independently of the math content and must be passed independently. > Pedagogy is also presumably taught as part of the teaching degree that the test-takers complete. The above isn't general pedagogy, it's Ontario-curriculum-specific. Applicants are not required to have Ontario diplomas, and there were no prep materials available. This has the end result that the test was effectively testing whether you happened to be educated in Ontario.
  - pseudo0 5y ago
    These are prospective teachers with teaching degrees, correct? It seems perfectly reasonable to test them on pedagogy. Arguably it could be done separately from the math test, but it is material they should know in order to be a teacher. > The above isn't general pedagogy, it's Ontario-curriculum-specific. Applicants are not required to have Ontario diplomas, and there were no prep materials available. This has the end result that the test was effectively testing whether you happened to be educated in Ontario. Responding to your edit... Wow. So someone can become an Ontario teacher with no knowledge of the Ontario curriculum? That seems like a bigger problem than testing prospective Ontario teachers on what they will be implementing in the classroom.
    - 542458 5y ago

by 542458 5y ago

thwayunion 5y ago

Re: Question 1, I know a lot about differentiated instruction but I have no clue what the hell the Capitalized Phrases are referring to. I could imagine knowing those these being important for a teacher. I could also imagine not. In any case, are those things covered in the required Ed courses? If so, this question seems fine. If not, it's a bad question. Re: Question 2, I know all the ins and outs of pre-assessment but have no idea which of these answers is supposed to be correct. Probably D but perhaps C? In any case, it doesn't seem like knowing the answer would improve or demonstrate my understanding of pre-assessment in any way. In fact, it's like a vocabulary test but the vocabulary term itself mostly just demonstrates that the conceptual framework you're being tested on was designed by folks who need to get much better at precision in communication! In any case, 100% pure trivia. More importantly, the lack of a thorough rubric and set of prep materials is egregiously embarrassing for an exam that specifically asks about pedagogy...

tootie 5y ago

Yeah the court ruled that it violated constitutional guidelines. Not that math teachers shouldn't be proficient at math. The person who wrote this letter probably knew all this and just wanted cover to express their unpopular political views.

car_analogy 5y ago
> Yeah the court ruled that it violated constitutional guidelines. Not that math teachers shouldn't be proficient at math. Right. Only that their proficiency mustn't be tested. Not with this test, anyway. They must use a hypothetical test where all groups perform equally well.
- tootie 5y ago
  That's not the ruling. The ruling said the test was excluding minorities and the Constitution doesn't allow for exclusionary policy. All the judge can do is rule on the law. If the ruling holds up, then it goes back to the legislature to come up with something else or change the law. The judge can't make new rules or apply their own opinion on how things should be. If you disagree, your quarrel is with whoever wrote this part of the Constitution.
  - car_analogy 5y ago
    > The ruling said the test was excluding minorities and the Constitution doesn't allow for exclusionary policy. Yes, it's a common tactic to use the most abstract terms to obscure the meaning of policies and rulings like these. Lets be more concrete: the test was excluding minorities how?
    - tootie 5y ago
      Doesn't matter. The law doesn't require the exclusion to be intentional or even explicable. It's purely based on outcomes.
      - 5y ago

pseudo0 5y ago

You appear to have selected only questions from the "pedagogy" section of the test, which is only 30% of the questions. Pedagogy is also presumably taught as part of the teaching degree that the test-takers complete. Here is a link to some full practice tests: https://mathproficiencytest.ca/#/en/sample-questions-pre https://mathproficiencytest.ca/#/en/sample-questions-pre The math questions are incredibly simple, and I'm astonished that people planning to become teachers had the chutzpah to complain about having to do middle-school math, let alone challenge it in court. The fact that they won is shameful for everyone involved.

542458 5y ago
To pass one must get a 70% separately on both the pedagogy and non-pedagogy section of the test. It doesn't matter what percentage of the questions are pedagogy, since it's marked independently of the math content and must be passed independently. > Pedagogy is also presumably taught as part of the teaching degree that the test-takers complete. The above isn't general pedagogy, it's Ontario-curriculum-specific. Applicants are not required to have Ontario diplomas, and there were no prep materials available. This has the end result that the test was effectively testing whether you happened to be educated in Ontario.
- pseudo0 5y ago
  These are prospective teachers with teaching degrees, correct? It seems perfectly reasonable to test them on pedagogy. Arguably it could be done separately from the math test, but it is material they should know in order to be a teacher. > The above isn't general pedagogy, it's Ontario-curriculum-specific. Applicants are not required to have Ontario diplomas, and there were no prep materials available. This has the end result that the test was effectively testing whether you happened to be educated in Ontario. Responding to your edit... Wow. So someone can become an Ontario teacher with no knowledge of the Ontario curriculum? That seems like a bigger problem than testing prospective Ontario teachers on what they will be implementing in the classroom.
  - 542458 5y ago