4 ms·

I don't buy the thesis. Some propaganda might seem dumb because it's meant to rile up particular bases, which might not include you. The propaganda that does ta

I don't buy the thesis. Some propaganda might seem dumb because it's meant to rile up particular bases, which might not include you. The propaganda that does target you will often be tangential to something you do believe in sincerely, and you might not see it as propaganda, and if you do, you might not see it as a problem in the same way you wouldn't see "common sense" as a problem.

throwanem 5y ago
It's hardly a novel thesis - Orwell in Nineteen Eighty-Four makes the same point, I believe, with the "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING" poster and the narratorial musings thereupon. Torchlight marches serve the same semiotic purpose. It's a demonstration of disciplined power, and implicitly therefore a threat: "this is what you'll face if you try to go against us." Whether the threat need be honored depends on many factors not all of which a march in itself can make evident. But the threat is there. Why go to all the trouble otherwise?
- jrumbut 5y ago
  I've often made this point to encourage people to vote even if they are indifferent to candidates or the races aren't competitive. It signals that you're paying attention and expect your interests to be taken into consideration.
DubiousPusher 5y ago
Yeah, only the most brazen and silly propaganda makes it into period TV and popular hisotries. Pop culture history forgets successful propaganda campaigns that - got people to believe streets are exlusively for cars - got people to accept public health - convinced lots of people it was ok to persecute communists - got people to buy awful 19th century railroad bonds We tend to think of propganada as loudpeakers and silly posters. The most successful propaganda tool of all in most nations is the primary public school.
- bllguo 5y ago
  > We tend to think of propaganda as loudspeakers and silly posters more generally, people fall in the trap of thinking of propaganda as "messaging that goes against my positions" or "propaganda is what my enemies use" which is 1. hilariously wrong (American propaganda is the best in the world, and far more widespread than Russian or whoever else is the boogeyman du jour) and 2. self-sabotaging (inability to play the game is why liberal messages that _should_ appeal to the majority of Americans fall on deaf ears, why health authorities have failed so spectacularly with COVID, etc.)
  - drewcoo 5y ago
    I wonder if bad liberal messaging is at all intentional. Portrayals of liberals as righteous but set-upon underdogs helps feed persecution complexes.
- epgui 5y ago
  > got people to accept public health Uhh... As a life scientist, I can't help but roll my eyes here. Public health is not propaganda. If you have a narrow and specific example, then advance it.
  - DubiousPusher 5y ago
    It seems you believe that propaganda must intrinsically be nefarious or false. My point is that propaganda is anything which the state finds beneficial for people to believe and therefore promotes. As an example, if a turn of the century government produced flyers extolling the virtues of hand washing and simultaneously produced flyers extolling the virtues of eugenics, would one be propaganda of public health but not the other? Why? Edit: To be clear, governments all over the world have executed massive public health information programs. - sanitation in the U.S. ca. the 1910s-1950s - toilet use in India (ongoing) - evangelism of the public health post WWII in the U.K. - Campaigns against AIDS misinformation on Africa from the 90s up to now
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
pvg 5y ago
The paper is about propaganda in authoritarian regimes which is almost always fairly unsophisticated in terms of the style and directness of the message. Nobody really needs yet another reminder to complete the five year plan in four years or that Saddam is the wisest, greatest ruler of all time. Beside signaling the power and vitality of the regime it also tells people what kind of public expressions are and are not acceptable. It's not a subtle message or one whose primary aim is persuasion.
- uoaei 5y ago
  ... in historical authoritarian regimes, perhaps that was the most explicit form. But the most effective propaganda is what is considered ideology by the mainstream -- i.e., defining the boundary of the Overton window. See as a simple example the claim that stimulus payouts will de facto lead to inflation, or the implications in the shares of coverage of Trump's various lawsuits vs that focused on Biden's family. In all cases, there is something left unsaid: an assumed, placed perspective that undergirds the analysis of and conclusions from whatever facts are presented. There, the meme (anti-meme?) at the heart of the deception lies.
  - pvg 5y ago
    in historical authoritarian regimes The paper is about China today. See as a simple example the claim that stimulus payouts [...] The paper is about propaganda in authoritarian regimes, the US is not an authoritarian regime.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Russian propaganda in Russia is not trying to shift overtone window. ISIS is not trying to subtly short it either. Regimes are not just historical.
andrei_says_ 5y ago
In this lecture on Moral Politics, George Lakoff addresses the “nonsensical” speech, metaphors, framing and more. Changed how I listen to mass media and political speech. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM Also highly recommend his Truth Samndwich methodology to defanging propaganda messages in the media. https://twitter.com/georgelakoff/status/1068891959882846208?lang=en https://twitter.com/georgelakoff/status/1068891959882846208?...

throwanem 5y ago

It's hardly a novel thesis - Orwell in Nineteen Eighty-Four makes the same point, I believe, with the "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING" poster and the narratorial musings thereupon. Torchlight marches serve the same semiotic purpose. It's a demonstration of disciplined power, and implicitly therefore a threat: "this is what you'll face if you try to go against us." Whether the threat need be honored depends on many factors not all of which a march in itself can make evident. But the threat is there. Why go to all the trouble otherwise?

jrumbut 5y ago
I've often made this point to encourage people to vote even if they are indifferent to candidates or the races aren't competitive. It signals that you're paying attention and expect your interests to be taken into consideration.

DubiousPusher 5y ago

Yeah, only the most brazen and silly propaganda makes it into period TV and popular hisotries. Pop culture history forgets successful propaganda campaigns that - got people to believe streets are exlusively for cars - got people to accept public health - convinced lots of people it was ok to persecute communists - got people to buy awful 19th century railroad bonds We tend to think of propganada as loudpeakers and silly posters. The most successful propaganda tool of all in most nations is the primary public school.

bllguo 5y ago
> We tend to think of propaganda as loudspeakers and silly posters more generally, people fall in the trap of thinking of propaganda as "messaging that goes against my positions" or "propaganda is what my enemies use" which is 1. hilariously wrong (American propaganda is the best in the world, and far more widespread than Russian or whoever else is the boogeyman du jour) and 2. self-sabotaging (inability to play the game is why liberal messages that _should_ appeal to the majority of Americans fall on deaf ears, why health authorities have failed so spectacularly with COVID, etc.)
- drewcoo 5y ago
  I wonder if bad liberal messaging is at all intentional. Portrayals of liberals as righteous but set-upon underdogs helps feed persecution complexes.
epgui 5y ago
> got people to accept public health Uhh... As a life scientist, I can't help but roll my eyes here. Public health is not propaganda. If you have a narrow and specific example, then advance it.
- DubiousPusher 5y ago
  It seems you believe that propaganda must intrinsically be nefarious or false. My point is that propaganda is anything which the state finds beneficial for people to believe and therefore promotes. As an example, if a turn of the century government produced flyers extolling the virtues of hand washing and simultaneously produced flyers extolling the virtues of eugenics, would one be propaganda of public health but not the other? Why? Edit: To be clear, governments all over the world have executed massive public health information programs. - sanitation in the U.S. ca. the 1910s-1950s - toilet use in India (ongoing) - evangelism of the public health post WWII in the U.K. - Campaigns against AIDS misinformation on Africa from the 90s up to now
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

pvg 5y ago

The paper is about propaganda in authoritarian regimes which is almost always fairly unsophisticated in terms of the style and directness of the message. Nobody really needs yet another reminder to complete the five year plan in four years or that Saddam is the wisest, greatest ruler of all time. Beside signaling the power and vitality of the regime it also tells people what kind of public expressions are and are not acceptable. It's not a subtle message or one whose primary aim is persuasion.

uoaei 5y ago
... in historical authoritarian regimes, perhaps that was the most explicit form. But the most effective propaganda is what is considered ideology by the mainstream -- i.e., defining the boundary of the Overton window. See as a simple example the claim that stimulus payouts will de facto lead to inflation, or the implications in the shares of coverage of Trump's various lawsuits vs that focused on Biden's family. In all cases, there is something left unsaid: an assumed, placed perspective that undergirds the analysis of and conclusions from whatever facts are presented. There, the meme (anti-meme?) at the heart of the deception lies.
- pvg 5y ago
  in historical authoritarian regimes The paper is about China today. See as a simple example the claim that stimulus payouts [...] The paper is about propaganda in authoritarian regimes, the US is not an authoritarian regime.
- watwut 5y ago
  Russian propaganda in Russia is not trying to shift overtone window. ISIS is not trying to subtly short it either. Regimes are not just historical.

andrei_says_ 5y ago

In this lecture on Moral Politics, George Lakoff addresses the “nonsensical” speech, metaphors, framing and more. Changed how I listen to mass media and political speech. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM Also highly recommend his Truth Samndwich methodology to defanging propaganda messages in the media. https://twitter.com/georgelakoff/status/1068891959882846208?lang=en https://twitter.com/georgelakoff/status/1068891959882846208?...