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"That’s why ICE car drivers think what they do is fine." I'm sorry what? ICE car drivers don't have an option to think most of time because there are no other o

"That’s why ICE car drivers think what they do is fine." I'm sorry what? ICE car drivers don't have an option to think most of time because there are no other options. For almost the entirety of driving there have been two options, gas or diesel. Hybrids have slowly started to arrive, electric cars even slower. This idea that everyone is just out there picking ICE cars because they don't care what comes out the tail pipe is a joke. People are broke, finance cars to 96 month terms, for a $17,000 used car. If there were affordable options for hybrid or electric cars sure, but this grand idea that the general public has a choice in the matter grinds my gears.

Symbiote 5y ago
You are missing the obvious alternatives: public transport, cycling, walking. I'm sitting on an electric suburban train. I don't know where the energy comes from, but there's a lot less needed than any car.
- post_break 5y ago
  All of those alternatives are highly dependent on where you live. The comment that I responded to had to do with those picking ICE car drivers, as if there were non ICE car options. Here in America 99% of the time your options are car, or nothing. Public transport either doesn't exist or doesn't go where you need it to if it's even on time. Cycling is dangerous and mostly used as exercise, and walking the distance is just too far. Would I love to cycle to work? Absolutely. Am I willing to risk my life every day to do so? I don't think so. The choices you call on as obvious, are just not depending on location. Tell someone in Texas to try cycling, taking the bus, or walking to work and see what their reaction is. Tell someone in Japan and the reaction is much different.
- sithadmin 5y ago
  Public transport, cycling and walking aren't a reasonable option for the vast majority of those in the US. I'm just outside of Washington DC (Northern VA, inside the 'beltway') - a locale that ostensibly has some of the best public transit the US has to offer. My neighborhood is highly walkable - any sort of quotidian essential (grocery, pharmacy, doctors, dentists, dining, library, etc.) is accessible within a ~20 minute walk of my home. But without a car, access to locales outside typical walking range is severely limited by public transit service frequency and coverage. The shortest public transit route to my suburban office ~8 miles north? 80 minutes one way, including 30 walking minutes, half of which do not include any paved sidewalks. There are no sane or safe bike routes to this location. It is only a ~15 minute commute by car. My commute to a typical downtown DC office location (Penn Quarter) by public transit alone? 75 minutes one way, again with 30 of it walking. That can be cut to ~50 minutes (inclusive 10 walking) if I drive to the nearest DC Metro station and take the train in, but then I have to rely on a car anyway, and I might as well just do the whole ~35ish minute drive into the city. Taking a bike to the train station would eliminate any time savings, and require dangerous riding on high-ish speed local roads and crossing a busy highway. The situation isn't going to change without investing incredible sums in infrastructure (which probably won't yield improvement for close to a decade, realistically) and massive changes in local zoning and development policy to promote dense development near suburban transportation hubs (never going to happen with NIMBY attitudes and warring municipal interests).
  - fckthisguy 5y ago
    What you're saying really can be summed up in that last paragraph; we've invested a lot into car-centric infrastructure amd it'll take time, effort, and sacrifices in the short-term to build something new. I don't blame people for driving, when the alternatives suck. We need to push to make those alternatives better. It's a chicken and egg problem.
- rhacker 5y ago
  If EVERYONE that was driving an ICE decided to take your train, you'd be waiting a few weeks to get to work.
  - sithadmin 5y ago
    Given that in practice, former car commuters don't uniformly decide to all take the train at once, this isn't really a realistic problem. Ramp up service capacity as demand increases. Plenty of global public transit providers have managed to scale to accommodate situations where the vast majority of commuters are in fact using trains (or bus service) as the primary transport to/from work.
tasuki 5y ago
Do we even know how much/whether fully electric cars are ecologically better than ICE cars? The tires are just as bad on electric cars. The humongous batteries are expensive to produce and hard to efficiently recycle. The energy used to charge an electric car still has to be created somehow, which in practice often includes... combustion.

Symbiote 5y ago

You are missing the obvious alternatives: public transport, cycling, walking. I'm sitting on an electric suburban train. I don't know where the energy comes from, but there's a lot less needed than any car.

post_break 5y ago
All of those alternatives are highly dependent on where you live. The comment that I responded to had to do with those picking ICE car drivers, as if there were non ICE car options. Here in America 99% of the time your options are car, or nothing. Public transport either doesn't exist or doesn't go where you need it to if it's even on time. Cycling is dangerous and mostly used as exercise, and walking the distance is just too far. Would I love to cycle to work? Absolutely. Am I willing to risk my life every day to do so? I don't think so. The choices you call on as obvious, are just not depending on location. Tell someone in Texas to try cycling, taking the bus, or walking to work and see what their reaction is. Tell someone in Japan and the reaction is much different.
sithadmin 5y ago
Public transport, cycling and walking aren't a reasonable option for the vast majority of those in the US. I'm just outside of Washington DC (Northern VA, inside the 'beltway') - a locale that ostensibly has some of the best public transit the US has to offer. My neighborhood is highly walkable - any sort of quotidian essential (grocery, pharmacy, doctors, dentists, dining, library, etc.) is accessible within a ~20 minute walk of my home. But without a car, access to locales outside typical walking range is severely limited by public transit service frequency and coverage. The shortest public transit route to my suburban office ~8 miles north? 80 minutes one way, including 30 walking minutes, half of which do not include any paved sidewalks. There are no sane or safe bike routes to this location. It is only a ~15 minute commute by car. My commute to a typical downtown DC office location (Penn Quarter) by public transit alone? 75 minutes one way, again with 30 of it walking. That can be cut to ~50 minutes (inclusive 10 walking) if I drive to the nearest DC Metro station and take the train in, but then I have to rely on a car anyway, and I might as well just do the whole ~35ish minute drive into the city. Taking a bike to the train station would eliminate any time savings, and require dangerous riding on high-ish speed local roads and crossing a busy highway. The situation isn't going to change without investing incredible sums in infrastructure (which probably won't yield improvement for close to a decade, realistically) and massive changes in local zoning and development policy to promote dense development near suburban transportation hubs (never going to happen with NIMBY attitudes and warring municipal interests).
- fckthisguy 5y ago
  What you're saying really can be summed up in that last paragraph; we've invested a lot into car-centric infrastructure amd it'll take time, effort, and sacrifices in the short-term to build something new. I don't blame people for driving, when the alternatives suck. We need to push to make those alternatives better. It's a chicken and egg problem.
rhacker 5y ago
If EVERYONE that was driving an ICE decided to take your train, you'd be waiting a few weeks to get to work.
- sithadmin 5y ago
  Given that in practice, former car commuters don't uniformly decide to all take the train at once, this isn't really a realistic problem. Ramp up service capacity as demand increases. Plenty of global public transit providers have managed to scale to accommodate situations where the vast majority of commuters are in fact using trains (or bus service) as the primary transport to/from work.

tasuki 5y ago

Do we even know how much/whether fully electric cars are ecologically better than ICE cars? The tires are just as bad on electric cars. The humongous batteries are expensive to produce and hard to efficiently recycle. The energy used to charge an electric car still has to be created somehow, which in practice often includes... combustion.