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Having worked remote for more than 10 years I feel most of these rituals as imposed after the pandemic by the managing layers and people obsessed with work cult

by kh_hk 5y ago

Having worked remote for more than 10 years I feel most of these rituals as imposed after the pandemic by the managing layers and people obsessed with work culture. I accept any non mandatory activity and might participate sometimes. But boy, I hate that my week is filled with meetings. At previous full remote positions meetings were the exception and all communication happened either on IRC or hipchat/slack. And that was enough for us to be productive. It wasn't until I started working remotely for companies that define themselves as hybrid (aka we hire contractors too) or that were forced to go remote after the pandemic that my agenda has been being filled with zoom meetings. I do not define myself as either introvert or extrovert, but I prefer to fill my social needs outside of work and some companies obsession with cult do really take a toll on my energy. It sometimes really feels self-catering to some people that seem to either always be connected or just slack off and sit their asses on meetings for the entire day while what I enjoy is getting shit done. </rant>

CraigJPerry 5y ago
>> but I prefer to fill my social needs outside of work This doesn’t get enough airtime in the whole remote vs in-office debate IMO. I wish this topic was brought up more often because a diverse network of friends is a very special thing in life.
- Tainnor 5y ago
  It gets way too much airtime. Every time someone complains that they miss their coworkers, someone just has to comment that "you should make friends outside your workplace" or, worse, that it's "unprofessional" to socialise at work. As if those two things were mutually incompatible. You can have friends outside of work (some of them may even be former colleagues!) and you can still be friendly with your coworkers and enjoy seeing them.
  - pc86 5y ago
    I am definitely more on this side of the fence. Fill your social calendar however you want to fill your social calendar. But social media, and HN in particular, is filled with people saying that you should basically only contact your coworkers via work channels for work purposes during work time and anything else is wrong or rude and is bad and you should feel bad.
- SamuelAdams 5y ago
  Agreed. I’m curious why young, fresh out of college grads who move across country (and have few / no friends in the new local area) make it their employers responsibility to foster friendships? Don’t get me wrong - it’s great to have genuine friendships with your coworkers. You work better together and have strong recommendations for the next job or have strong referrals to other companies when your friends leave. At the same time though your employer is not your parents. The best thing they can do is respect a healthy work life balance and give you time so that you can establish your own friendships.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    > I’m curious why young, fresh out of college grads who move across country (and have few / no friends in the new local area) make it their employers responsibility to foster friendships? Schools provide an easy atmosphere to develop friendships without having to look too hard. College does not help with this. I suspect some of them don't know how to make friends on their own. Note: This is from the perspective of someone who didn't have more than one friend as a kid at any time.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    > I’m curious why young, fresh out of college grads [...] make it their employers responsibility to foster friendships? Personally, I've never heard anyone explicitly say it's their employer's responsibility. But if my employer occasionally offers me the option to leave the office early and go drinking at their expense, while getting paid? Nobody's going to oppose having the option.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      As long as I can also choose to leave the office early and not go drinking, I have no problem with that. But god forbid anyone just want to put in their time and go home, and not socialize with their coworkers after hours. How anti social of me. I clearly am not a team player.
- AlwaysRock 5y ago
  The absolute worst to me is team scheduled events that go past 5. Like if you want team mandated bonding, plan for it in the sprint, schedule time for it, and make it a part of the work day. If I'm expected to stay to 6 or 7 or 8 to hangout with co workers AND were going to have to work harder the next day to make up for that lost time then you are actually hurting the team, not helping.
gilbetron 5y ago
counter rant: I get great joy at socialization by working with people. It is something I've come to discover about myself, and I am not alone. And "work" doesn't have to include a job, but "working" with people on a sports team, or doing renovation at home or any other thing where we are working together to do something. Many other social things people like to do just doesn't do it much for me, although I've gotten better at it as the decades have passed. It's not that I don't like leisure activities, it's just that my leisure activities are largely solo: video games, reading, tinkering on projects, etc. So I'm starting to get really annoyed at this idea that "work" is something orthogonal to socialization, when I think the opposite is more true. Connecting with people I work with is important, and I am not alone. Nor do I think I'm in the minority. You think it caters to people that just want to slack off. I think what you are describing creates a work environment devoid of joy and humanity. Working is not anti-human, it is a fundamental component of humanity.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 5150rc 5y ago
  "Working is not anti-human, it is a fundamental component of humanity." Working is anti-human when that human has no choice but to work or else they become homeless and die in the street. For many, including myself, a job is a means to an end, not an extension of sociality. Apart of being human is understanding that other humans have a different perception of socialization and not being offended when they don't want to join you in small talk.
  - tomtheelder 5y ago
    I think it's hard to classify that as anti-human when that has been the same for the entirety of our existence as a species. And to be honest on HN there's a lot more people getting offended by the idea that someone might enjoy small talk than vice versa.
  - gilbetron 5y ago
    The entirety of our existence, and I mean all the way back when we were single-celled organisms, it has been work or die. It isn't until relatively recently that any other option generally represented itself. I'm not saying that people should be forced into smalltalk, and I'm not saying that people that "just want to work" have something wrong with them, I'm just pushing back on the notion that it anti-human and aberrant to want to have a social component to work, when "work" is an important part of life.
scarecrowbob 5y ago
I agree with this and I've also been remote for more than a decade. The only time I have seen folks try and start implementing these things has been in meetings with folks who are managing teams that have recently become remote. I also don't think that the introvert/extrovert distinction works well. I am quite a social person; I participate in quite a few activities like climbing, playing music, or ecstatic dancing. Recently I've been spending a lot of time busking and really enjoying my interactions with passers by. And I also really like to be at home, alone, getting stuff done-- work or writing music or whatever. I have much preferred having more agency over what that looks like, and that rarely includes just chatting with co-workers. Fortunately, my coworkers all seem to feel the same.

by kh_hk 5y ago

CraigJPerry 5y ago

>> but I prefer to fill my social needs outside of work This doesn’t get enough airtime in the whole remote vs in-office debate IMO. I wish this topic was brought up more often because a diverse network of friends is a very special thing in life.

Tainnor 5y ago
It gets way too much airtime. Every time someone complains that they miss their coworkers, someone just has to comment that "you should make friends outside your workplace" or, worse, that it's "unprofessional" to socialise at work. As if those two things were mutually incompatible. You can have friends outside of work (some of them may even be former colleagues!) and you can still be friendly with your coworkers and enjoy seeing them.
- pc86 5y ago
  I am definitely more on this side of the fence. Fill your social calendar however you want to fill your social calendar. But social media, and HN in particular, is filled with people saying that you should basically only contact your coworkers via work channels for work purposes during work time and anything else is wrong or rude and is bad and you should feel bad.
SamuelAdams 5y ago
Agreed. I’m curious why young, fresh out of college grads who move across country (and have few / no friends in the new local area) make it their employers responsibility to foster friendships? Don’t get me wrong - it’s great to have genuine friendships with your coworkers. You work better together and have strong recommendations for the next job or have strong referrals to other companies when your friends leave. At the same time though your employer is not your parents. The best thing they can do is respect a healthy work life balance and give you time so that you can establish your own friendships.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  > I’m curious why young, fresh out of college grads who move across country (and have few / no friends in the new local area) make it their employers responsibility to foster friendships? Schools provide an easy atmosphere to develop friendships without having to look too hard. College does not help with this. I suspect some of them don't know how to make friends on their own. Note: This is from the perspective of someone who didn't have more than one friend as a kid at any time.
- michaelt 5y ago
  > I’m curious why young, fresh out of college grads [...] make it their employers responsibility to foster friendships? Personally, I've never heard anyone explicitly say it's their employer's responsibility. But if my employer occasionally offers me the option to leave the office early and go drinking at their expense, while getting paid? Nobody's going to oppose having the option.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    As long as I can also choose to leave the office early and not go drinking, I have no problem with that. But god forbid anyone just want to put in their time and go home, and not socialize with their coworkers after hours. How anti social of me. I clearly am not a team player.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
The absolute worst to me is team scheduled events that go past 5. Like if you want team mandated bonding, plan for it in the sprint, schedule time for it, and make it a part of the work day. If I'm expected to stay to 6 or 7 or 8 to hangout with co workers AND were going to have to work harder the next day to make up for that lost time then you are actually hurting the team, not helping.

gilbetron 5y ago

counter rant: I get great joy at socialization by working with people. It is something I've come to discover about myself, and I am not alone. And "work" doesn't have to include a job, but "working" with people on a sports team, or doing renovation at home or any other thing where we are working together to do something. Many other social things people like to do just doesn't do it much for me, although I've gotten better at it as the decades have passed. It's not that I don't like leisure activities, it's just that my leisure activities are largely solo: video games, reading, tinkering on projects, etc. So I'm starting to get really annoyed at this idea that "work" is something orthogonal to socialization, when I think the opposite is more true. Connecting with people I work with is important, and I am not alone. Nor do I think I'm in the minority. You think it caters to people that just want to slack off. I think what you are describing creates a work environment devoid of joy and humanity. Working is not anti-human, it is a fundamental component of humanity.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
5150rc 5y ago
"Working is not anti-human, it is a fundamental component of humanity." Working is anti-human when that human has no choice but to work or else they become homeless and die in the street. For many, including myself, a job is a means to an end, not an extension of sociality. Apart of being human is understanding that other humans have a different perception of socialization and not being offended when they don't want to join you in small talk.
- tomtheelder 5y ago
  I think it's hard to classify that as anti-human when that has been the same for the entirety of our existence as a species. And to be honest on HN there's a lot more people getting offended by the idea that someone might enjoy small talk than vice versa.
- gilbetron 5y ago
  The entirety of our existence, and I mean all the way back when we were single-celled organisms, it has been work or die. It isn't until relatively recently that any other option generally represented itself. I'm not saying that people should be forced into smalltalk, and I'm not saying that people that "just want to work" have something wrong with them, I'm just pushing back on the notion that it anti-human and aberrant to want to have a social component to work, when "work" is an important part of life.

scarecrowbob 5y ago

I agree with this and I've also been remote for more than a decade. The only time I have seen folks try and start implementing these things has been in meetings with folks who are managing teams that have recently become remote. I also don't think that the introvert/extrovert distinction works well. I am quite a social person; I participate in quite a few activities like climbing, playing music, or ecstatic dancing. Recently I've been spending a lot of time busking and really enjoying my interactions with passers by. And I also really like to be at home, alone, getting stuff done-- work or writing music or whatever. I have much preferred having more agency over what that looks like, and that rarely includes just chatting with co-workers. Fortunately, my coworkers all seem to feel the same.