5 ms·

Sorry, I read it all the time, but still - how the fuck is it suddenly normal for a fairly standard salary amongst any non exec layer in a company to be ~$250k?

by dmje 5y ago

Sorry, I read it all the time, but still - how the fuck is it suddenly normal for a fairly standard salary amongst any non exec layer in a company to be ~$250k? I know engineers and developers have to be skilled, but this is insane. No-one needs that kind of money. People in Nepal live for $10 a week. What an insanity.

jthrowsitaway 5y ago
What point are you suggesting with your Nepal example? It's a third world country. Fast presumably employed people in San Francisco. That weekly wage from Nepal might buy you a bag of apples from Costco here. An entire year's worth of wages in Nepal might pay for one month's rent of basic housing. Sure, nobody needs $250k per year to survive. CEOs also don't need to have an obscene compensation ratio compared to their workers. Health care companies don't need to rake in billions in profits every quarter. Sitting congress people don't need to conduct stock trades worth hundreds of millions every year. But here we are. Companies paying everyday employees competitive wages in a free market is way down on my list of things to lose sleep over. We have a few other systemic issues I'd like to see solved first.
- dmje 5y ago
  > We have a few other systemic issues I’d like to see solved first Insane levels of inequality is what’s on my list
  - panick21_ 5y ago
    Actually helping poverty seems like more important then any relative measure.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    Do you know what the average salary is in the Bay Area? You’re completely out of touch if you think $250k is “insane inequality”. Take a look through the salaries paid for working at public transit there (BART): https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/Salary%20Schedule%201.1.2020%20%28FINAL%29.pdf https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/Salary%20Sched...
    - hu3 5y ago
      Bay Area is an exception on it's own. I think that link proves OP's point.
bjarneh 5y ago
> No-one needs that kind of money. I'm currently renovating an old house, I certainly need it :-)
- v-erne 5y ago
  Yeah, building anything became rich man game everywhere. Building materials prices are getting crazy all over the place (in my country price of some of them doubled or event tripled over last two years). But I like to tell myself that maybe, just maybe, it's not like the world owes me a possibility to have house. And maybe I don't even need or should have one. Its just my greed that pushes me towards having more stuff (and thus need more space to keep it).
cipheredStones 5y ago
You're looking at the wrong level of the problem. Engineers in Big Tech can make $250k because they're making even more money than that for their bosses - if they were paid less, it would just mean that the bosses and stockholders got paid more. Same for startups, except there it's a VC betting that he'll make $50M if he gives 10 companies $2.5M so that they can each pay 10 engineers $250k. We don't live in a system where what you "deserve" has anything to do with what you get; the factors are how much cash you're expected to bring in and how much leverage you have when splitting up that cash between you and the company.
- dmje 5y ago
  Sure. I’m just expressing discomfort at how it became just “meh, it’s how it is”. My issue is I just don’t see the world in this money focused way. From out here, in the land where it’s sort of average to earn maybe $50k and feel pretty good about that, it looks pretty sick. I don’t get it, I don’t like it, it feels disingenuous to support it with what seems to be an endless “it’s ok, everyone does it” or “that’s just how the system is” argument. Maybe if those guys gave away 50% of their salaries to support good causes, I’d feel better about it. But I’m betting my ass they don’t.
  - TideAd 5y ago
    Money is a tool for many things in life. Here are some things you get at $250k that you don't at $50k in a cheap place: - Have enough financial security to know that you can weather most emergencies, medical bills, etc. - Tip well and support your friends' businesses - Retire before you're too old to enjoy it. Or take a sabbatical. - Do good. Let's say you want to give $10k to charity. Very doable on $250k, but asking a lot on $50k. - Buy more ethical products (whatever this means to you) - Avoid a lot of the soul-crushing bullshit of everyday life. Car doesn't run? Landlord is trying to screw you? You can solve those problems with money. There are a lot of rich assholes out there, but they would have been assholes even if they were poor. You won't turn into one if you have a different outlook.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    Get a better job, you’re underpaid if you have the skill set to work in tech. Don’t take it out on everyone else because you’re selling your skills at below market value. > Maybe if those guys gave away 50% of their salaries to support good causes, I’d feel better about it Do you give away 50% of your salary? How would you feel about someone who only clears $30k claiming you don’t need that money and that you should give away 50%? Introspect why you have tall poppy syndrome, it’s toxic and will hold you back.
TideAd 5y ago
I mean, would you rather my company have the money? As a software engineer you have the ability to take a lot of money from a lot of soulless bureaucracies and do whatever you want with it. You could do a bunch of good with it if you want. We're on the labor side of this equation, we should be asking for as much as we can get.
yibg 5y ago
How much do you make and do you need it? I’m guessing you make more than $10 a week.
rossriley 5y ago
Engineers at this level aren't just cogs in a wheel, the best ones can conceive, architect and ship businesses that deliver 100s of millions in revenue. At this point in time, they're not valuing their time, but their overall value that can be brought into a company. So just the same as a top sales person that can bring in millions of dollars of revenue can earn a certain percent of that as commission, the best engineers can strike a similar deal.
kortilla 5y ago
This attitude of cutting down the upper middle class incomes is baffling to me. On $250k you can probably retire 10 years earlier than normal. It’s nice but you still live a normal life and do normal things. Why is it normal in your mind for a lawyer to make that? Why a doctor? Why the owner of a small business? Why an exec? > No-one needs that kind of money. Money hasn’t been issued based on need ever in the history of the world. How is this any different?
nikanj 5y ago
You need that kind of money, when a decent family home near the offices costs $4 million

dmje 5y ago
I'm not an engineer, I'm a generalist who works in tech. I'm based in the UK, so no - I apparently have no idea about what it's like to live in the area. But that's not really my point. My point isn't about how expensive it is to live in SF, it's about looking at this bigger picture thing about money, how important it is, why the world (and let's face it, particularly the US and even more particularly the tech hot-spots of the US) is killing itself on 80 hour weeks for insane salaries but still being miserable and having to fill themselves with happy pills to get through the day, and meanwhile 90% of the world is scraping food out of a ditch. Sorry for being an idealist, or "out of touch" but I don't know how anyone can look at this and just say "yeh, I'm ok with that". FWIW, some context: - I live on a household income of maybe $100k for a family of 4, by the sea in Cornwall. We live what I would personally consider an extremely luxurious life: a 5 bed house, lots of space, lots of greenery, big skies, amazing seas, and time to look at them - I work way less than a 40 hour working week. I work with non-profits. I love what I do. It makes me happy. - I see my kids. I see my wife. I hang out with my friends. I have hobbies. I'm putting aside enough for a pension. No, I won't be able to retire at 50 (I'm 49!), and I'll probably still be doing this in 10 / 15 years' time. But it's fun, thoughtful work that (I hope) isn't going to kill me. As you've asked - no, we don't give away 50% but we are gifting 10% of profits this year, to see what it means, and will likely be upping this and taking the Effective Altruism pledge next year. It's a small amount, but it feels important and the right thing to do. I had to look up "tall poppy syndrome" - I'm getting old :-) To respond to this particular criticism - I mean, I guess I'd ask "what is success?" here. I don't know if there's a way of saying this without sounding highly antagonistic or patronising, but for me it's less about criticising those who have found "success" and more that I feel sad for people who think money is everything. It strikes me as the ultimate folly. And thanks, but I don't feel held back. I feel pretty good. Anyway, It's 10am on a Friday morning and I should go start work ;-)