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In the hacker community, I often hear the following reaction to this kind of story: "You got shafted by the system? I guess you shouldn't have blindly followed

by jarrett 15y ago

In the hacker community, I often hear the following reaction to this kind of story: "You got shafted by the system? I guess you shouldn't have blindly followed someone else's life script." I'm doing well, and I can't complain. But I'm bothered by the flippant attitude toward these "99 percenters" who played the game as it was explained to them and ended up poor. Sure, for successful hackers who find their skills in demand, it's easy to say that these people are just not creative enough, that they lacked the insight to see the right path through our economic system. When your bets paid off, it's easy to criticize those whose bets didn't. But it's unfair. Our society insistently thrusts on us a narrative that says getting an education and working hard will provide a comfortable life. And why shouldn't people be able to trust that? When the same narrative is told to us by our parents, teachers, politicians, celebrities, and just about everyone else, how can we deride those who buy into it? The grand bargain our economic system has made with the middle class--work hard, get a degree, work hard some more, and you'll be OK--is turning out to be a lie for many people. A fair society would not put people into that position. I understand that economic fairness is not a guiding principle of our economy, but it ought to be.

hnal943 15y ago
The problem with this line of thinking is that there's no one person or group in charge of "society." Blaming society is the same as blaming yourself (who else makes up society but the 99%-ers?). To me, it's disturbing that the quotes come from people who seem so detached from their own failure. I'd like to see what the majors of these people with their "advanced degrees" that can't find anyone who thinks they are worth hiring. That said, the correct response to these folks' predicament is for them to change the culture. The best way to do that is not to stage an aimless protest, but to cut up the credit cards, get 2 or 3 jobs, and teach your children the right way to handle money.
- jarrett 15y ago
  "Blaming society is the same as blaming yourself (who else makes up society but the 99%-ers?)" Not the slightest bit true. Economic and political power are concentrated. That's one of the main gripes of this movement. The college grads who played by the rules and got nothing for it did not set the system up that way. Their plight is due in large part to the economic crisis, which is in turn the fault of the tiny sliver of the population that gets to gamble with other people's money.
  - hnal943 15y ago
    What rules? There are no rules in any society that guarantee success, except possibly in a corrupt totalitarian state. They had choices to make; some made bad ones that ignored the risk they were taking. Everyone in this story has racked up a mountain of debt. Why? Because they thought that's what everyone did when they went to school. If conventional wisdom is your only guide, small wonder you are blown and tossed by the wind. What tiny sliver of the population forced them to go massively into student and credit card debt? Who promised them that they would get "good jobs" for getting "advanced degrees?" The president? Wall Street? "Society?" Seems like there's no one to hold accountable here but themselves.
    - jarrett 15y ago
      "If conventional wisdom is your only guide, small wonder you are blown and tossed by the wind." This is exactly the attitude that I'm against. It may seem easy for us on Hacker News to ignore conventional wisdom. But I think it's perfectly fair that most people should be able to trust the advice that almost everyone in society gives them. "What tiny sliver of the population forced them to go massively into student and credit card debt?" The sliver that does this is the one that eats up an incredibly disproportionate amount of the value in society, leaving a smaller pie for everyone else to spend on their education, housing, food, medical care, etc.. The average middle class person has been taught and fairly believes that college is a necessity for economic security. If that can only be paid for with debt, then what is such a person to do? Be an entrepreneur? Clearly, that's not for everyone. Likewise, you can't expect all these people to just figure out what careers they can have without an education, then learn it all through self-teaching.
- beej71 15y ago
  We can't claim that all environments produce equal numbers of rich and successful people. After forcing kids to go through utterly useless high school, you say to them to get 2 or 3 jobs in an economic downturn they weren't even responsible for, using skills that aren't competitive with overseas workers in second-world countries? The kids can't improve high school while they're in it, and when they're out, it's too late. As a society, we need a better plan (change the culture, as you put it), but many people concerned with bills, jobs, food, or even getting shot are not really thinking about the greater plan. People with no time and no money do not change the culture. They get used and abused. The answer is multifaceted. You can't just tell people to suck it up by their bootstraps and expect things to change. It's part of it, but not all of it. You can't just legislate change, either. It's definitely also part of it, though. Finally, these youngsters are the ones that are going to be paying for your government services after you stop being a productive taxpayer. Unless you're saving up for your drug testing, roads, and army, I'd recommend considering a helping hand. I'm for a tax increase on money over $50K AGI (which would definitely impact me) in hand with a good plan for improvement. I don't want "less" or "more" government; I want better government.

by jarrett 15y ago

hnal943 15y ago

The problem with this line of thinking is that there's no one person or group in charge of "society." Blaming society is the same as blaming yourself (who else makes up society but the 99%-ers?). To me, it's disturbing that the quotes come from people who seem so detached from their own failure. I'd like to see what the majors of these people with their "advanced degrees" that can't find anyone who thinks they are worth hiring. That said, the correct response to these folks' predicament is for them to change the culture. The best way to do that is not to stage an aimless protest, but to cut up the credit cards, get 2 or 3 jobs, and teach your children the right way to handle money.

jarrett 15y ago
"Blaming society is the same as blaming yourself (who else makes up society but the 99%-ers?)" Not the slightest bit true. Economic and political power are concentrated. That's one of the main gripes of this movement. The college grads who played by the rules and got nothing for it did not set the system up that way. Their plight is due in large part to the economic crisis, which is in turn the fault of the tiny sliver of the population that gets to gamble with other people's money.
- hnal943 15y ago
  What rules? There are no rules in any society that guarantee success, except possibly in a corrupt totalitarian state. They had choices to make; some made bad ones that ignored the risk they were taking. Everyone in this story has racked up a mountain of debt. Why? Because they thought that's what everyone did when they went to school. If conventional wisdom is your only guide, small wonder you are blown and tossed by the wind. What tiny sliver of the population forced them to go massively into student and credit card debt? Who promised them that they would get "good jobs" for getting "advanced degrees?" The president? Wall Street? "Society?" Seems like there's no one to hold accountable here but themselves.
  - jarrett 15y ago
    "If conventional wisdom is your only guide, small wonder you are blown and tossed by the wind." This is exactly the attitude that I'm against. It may seem easy for us on Hacker News to ignore conventional wisdom. But I think it's perfectly fair that most people should be able to trust the advice that almost everyone in society gives them. "What tiny sliver of the population forced them to go massively into student and credit card debt?" The sliver that does this is the one that eats up an incredibly disproportionate amount of the value in society, leaving a smaller pie for everyone else to spend on their education, housing, food, medical care, etc.. The average middle class person has been taught and fairly believes that college is a necessity for economic security. If that can only be paid for with debt, then what is such a person to do? Be an entrepreneur? Clearly, that's not for everyone. Likewise, you can't expect all these people to just figure out what careers they can have without an education, then learn it all through self-teaching.
beej71 15y ago
We can't claim that all environments produce equal numbers of rich and successful people. After forcing kids to go through utterly useless high school, you say to them to get 2 or 3 jobs in an economic downturn they weren't even responsible for, using skills that aren't competitive with overseas workers in second-world countries? The kids can't improve high school while they're in it, and when they're out, it's too late. As a society, we need a better plan (change the culture, as you put it), but many people concerned with bills, jobs, food, or even getting shot are not really thinking about the greater plan. People with no time and no money do not change the culture. They get used and abused. The answer is multifaceted. You can't just tell people to suck it up by their bootstraps and expect things to change. It's part of it, but not all of it. You can't just legislate change, either. It's definitely also part of it, though. Finally, these youngsters are the ones that are going to be paying for your government services after you stop being a productive taxpayer. Unless you're saving up for your drug testing, roads, and army, I'd recommend considering a helping hand. I'm for a tax increase on money over $50K AGI (which would definitely impact me) in hand with a good plan for improvement. I don't want "less" or "more" government; I want better government.