4 ms·

Obviously this is a "bad person" and I do think they should be arrested, put in Jail, but... isn't this entrapment? I mean this guy UC-1 obviously brought up "h

Obviously this is a "bad person" and I do think they should be arrested, put in Jail, but... isn't this entrapment? I mean this guy UC-1 obviously brought up "hey you guys wanna buy some SAMs", and then they were arrested. I am curious if this is because the weapons charge would be a longer prison sentence than drug trafficking or they couldn't bust him on that without creating this situation. Again, obviously this person should be behind bars, but this method of manufacturing scenarios seems somewhat insane to me. Maybe I am misinterpreting the release but thats the way it seems.

kevingadd 5y ago
Some kinds of entrapment are legal in Japan. In general, law enforcement there rarely fails to secure a conviction.
- asiachick 5y ago
  Because they don't try to convict unless they already know the person is likely guilty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc
  - actionfromafar 5y ago
    Do we know this? To the police "know we can get a conviction" and "know is guilty" may be a distinction without a difference.
    - asiachick 5y ago
      Did you watch the video? The difference in numbers is how things are measured. Measure them the same way and Japan's rate is lower than the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#:~:text=If%20measured%20in%20the%20same,someone%20while%20committing%20a%20crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#:~:text=If%20m....
  - namelessoracle 5y ago
    The Japanese system is big on coercing confessions (the American system is big on plea deals so you might think its the same, but its not quite the same thing). They have all kinds of buttons they can press to force the issue on you. Another thing is even you are somehow found innocent, the prosecutor gets to immediately appeal and they are likely to win that appeal. You stay in jail/prison while all this plays out. The US system is SUPPOSED to be based on its better to let the guilty go free than punish the innocent. (It fails at this but this is at least a lip service value) The Japanese system doesnt do this or really hold this as a major value.
  - rasz 5y ago
    well "Jailed in Japan for a crime she didn’t commit, a young American teacher learns the meaning of the phrase sho ga nai — “It can’t be helped.”" https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotape-at-the-kawasaki-kmart.html https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotap... "The security guard had been trying to meet a quota and felt that I, as a foreigner, would make an easy target."
    - asiachick 4y ago
      You're cherry picking. I can google "wrong person arrested" or similar and find 1000s of stories in the USA. The fact is Japan's conviction rate is lower than USA if you measure the same way. It's only because of the way it's measured that it appears to be higher.
tmp538394722 5y ago
Entrapment doesn’t mean that someone lied to you or tempted you while you committed a crime. I really like this whole series: https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-was-entrapped https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-w...
- antisthenes 5y ago
  Great series. Shame about the typography. Found the font really hard to read.
- n4r9 5y ago
  The second example, Grayson, makes no sense to me. This is someone who would not have committed a crime, perhaps never has, and never would have if not being asked to do it. The police literally invented a situation to encourage him to commit a crime. Saying that he was "inclined" is weaselly. I doubt this would fly in the UK although curious to be shown otherwise.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hemreldop 5y ago
    I agree, knowing people that sell drugs doesn’t mean you’re “inclined” to do anything. The only thing is you can’t really accept heroin to sell.
    - n4r9 5y ago
      I mean, even then it's contextual surely. How far can the police go? Can they look around for someone who's having an incredibly tough year financially, and offer them a one-off way to scrape through by selling drugs, even if the opportunity would never arise otherwise? We're in the realm of hyperrealism and state-constructed narratives here.
      - leaflets2 5y ago
tehwebguy 5y ago
It’s never entrapment. That term needs to die, my guess is plenty of people get nailed for committing minor crimes they might not have otherwise because someone (a cop) convinced them it’s not a big deal. (No clue how many cases like Jesse Snodgrass[0] there are but it’s wild that scenarios like this can even happen, there is always a real crime to be solved yet resources were wasted on this) Along the same lines: “It’s never a hitman” (and now I suppose we can also add “You’re never buying a surface to air missile”) [0] https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse-snodgrass-116008/amp/ https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse...
- BossingAround 5y ago
  Jesse Snodgrass came to my mind. Unbelievable what tax-payer funds get wasted on. The sooner "war on drugs" dies out, the better.
- jstarfish 5y ago
  > Along the same lines: “It’s never a hitman” Common in fraud cases: it's never "I was hacked." (ed. for clarification: identity fraud and other social engineering feats are not "hacking.")
- leaflets2 5y ago
  Thanks for the link, (the article at rollingstone.com) interesting read I'm thinking about the police, in those cases, as the true criminals
legalcorrection 5y ago
In the US, the legal standard to use entrapment as a defense requires you to show 1) inducement (as opposed to mere solicitation) to commit the crime AND 2) that you were not predisposed to commit the crime. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-645-entrapment-elements https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual... So entrapment basically means you were coaxed into a committing a crime that you weren't predisposed to commit. So if an undercover FBI agent becomes your best friend and begs you, who are not in the business of selling drugs or any contraband, to help them score some cocaine, that's entrapment. But if they just become a business associate of yours and ask you to help them source some stolen goods and you say yes, that's not entrapment because it's probably just solicitation, not inducement. Or say you're out there slinging cocaine on a corner and an undercover cop walks up to you, but you smell something fishy and turn him down, but then he begs you to help him because he really needs his fix and is going nuts, and you give in and sell to him. That sounds like inducement but you were already predisposed to commit that crime, so no entrapment defense for you probably.

kevingadd 5y ago

Some kinds of entrapment are legal in Japan. In general, law enforcement there rarely fails to secure a conviction.

asiachick 5y ago
Because they don't try to convict unless they already know the person is likely guilty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc
- actionfromafar 5y ago
  Do we know this? To the police "know we can get a conviction" and "know is guilty" may be a distinction without a difference.
  - asiachick 5y ago
    Did you watch the video? The difference in numbers is how things are measured. Measure them the same way and Japan's rate is lower than the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#:~:text=If%20measured%20in%20the%20same,someone%20while%20committing%20a%20crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#:~:text=If%20m....
- namelessoracle 5y ago
  The Japanese system is big on coercing confessions (the American system is big on plea deals so you might think its the same, but its not quite the same thing). They have all kinds of buttons they can press to force the issue on you. Another thing is even you are somehow found innocent, the prosecutor gets to immediately appeal and they are likely to win that appeal. You stay in jail/prison while all this plays out. The US system is SUPPOSED to be based on its better to let the guilty go free than punish the innocent. (It fails at this but this is at least a lip service value) The Japanese system doesnt do this or really hold this as a major value.
- rasz 5y ago
  well "Jailed in Japan for a crime she didn’t commit, a young American teacher learns the meaning of the phrase sho ga nai — “It can’t be helped.”" https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotape-at-the-kawasaki-kmart.html https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotap... "The security guard had been trying to meet a quota and felt that I, as a foreigner, would make an easy target."
  - asiachick 4y ago
    You're cherry picking. I can google "wrong person arrested" or similar and find 1000s of stories in the USA. The fact is Japan's conviction rate is lower than USA if you measure the same way. It's only because of the way it's measured that it appears to be higher.

tmp538394722 5y ago

Entrapment doesn’t mean that someone lied to you or tempted you while you committed a crime. I really like this whole series: https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-was-entrapped https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-w...

antisthenes 5y ago
Great series. Shame about the typography. Found the font really hard to read.
n4r9 5y ago
The second example, Grayson, makes no sense to me. This is someone who would not have committed a crime, perhaps never has, and never would have if not being asked to do it. The police literally invented a situation to encourage him to commit a crime. Saying that he was "inclined" is weaselly. I doubt this would fly in the UK although curious to be shown otherwise.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hemreldop 5y ago
  I agree, knowing people that sell drugs doesn’t mean you’re “inclined” to do anything. The only thing is you can’t really accept heroin to sell.
  - n4r9 5y ago
    I mean, even then it's contextual surely. How far can the police go? Can they look around for someone who's having an incredibly tough year financially, and offer them a one-off way to scrape through by selling drugs, even if the opportunity would never arise otherwise? We're in the realm of hyperrealism and state-constructed narratives here.
    - leaflets2 5y ago

tehwebguy 5y ago

It’s never entrapment. That term needs to die, my guess is plenty of people get nailed for committing minor crimes they might not have otherwise because someone (a cop) convinced them it’s not a big deal. (No clue how many cases like Jesse Snodgrass[0] there are but it’s wild that scenarios like this can even happen, there is always a real crime to be solved yet resources were wasted on this) Along the same lines: “It’s never a hitman” (and now I suppose we can also add “You’re never buying a surface to air missile”) [0] https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse-snodgrass-116008/amp/ https://www.rollingstone.com/feature/the-entrapment-of-jesse...

BossingAround 5y ago
Jesse Snodgrass came to my mind. Unbelievable what tax-payer funds get wasted on. The sooner "war on drugs" dies out, the better.
jstarfish 5y ago
> Along the same lines: “It’s never a hitman” Common in fraud cases: it's never "I was hacked." (ed. for clarification: identity fraud and other social engineering feats are not "hacking.")
leaflets2 5y ago
Thanks for the link, (the article at rollingstone.com) interesting read I'm thinking about the police, in those cases, as the true criminals

legalcorrection 5y ago

In the US, the legal standard to use entrapment as a defense requires you to show 1) inducement (as opposed to mere solicitation) to commit the crime AND 2) that you were not predisposed to commit the crime. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-645-entrapment-elements https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual... So entrapment basically means you were coaxed into a committing a crime that you weren't predisposed to commit. So if an undercover FBI agent becomes your best friend and begs you, who are not in the business of selling drugs or any contraband, to help them score some cocaine, that's entrapment. But if they just become a business associate of yours and ask you to help them source some stolen goods and you say yes, that's not entrapment because it's probably just solicitation, not inducement. Or say you're out there slinging cocaine on a corner and an undercover cop walks up to you, but you smell something fishy and turn him down, but then he begs you to help him because he really needs his fix and is going nuts, and you give in and sell to him. That sounds like inducement but you were already predisposed to commit that crime, so no entrapment defense for you probably.