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This is actually much more interesting than just the level of detail. The motif on it is the same as on a seal found in the Mycenaean grave circle with "Agamem
by kromem 5y ago
This is actually much more interesting than just the level of detail.
The motif on it is the same as on a seal found in the Mycenaean grave circle with "Agamemnon's Mask" (dated 16th century BCE, centuries too early to be Homer's Agamemnon): https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-the-lower-grave-circle-mycenae-16th-century-bc-image268834686.html https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-...
But the Minoans almost never produced goods for themselves depicting warfare until after the Mycenaean take over ~1450 BCE, after these seals were made.
While Minoan princes were often depicted nearly nude and with long hair and sometimes leaping, the Griffin warrior grave was for an actual warrior and among the items he was buried with was a comb for hair.
Just who were the warriors depicted across centuries and different locations in these Mycenaean seals, and what was the nature of their battle?
You can see in the Pylos combat agate that the long haired warrior is fighting above the body of another fallen comrade.
While the motif predates any possible historic Trojan War by centuries, I suspect that the tradition behind this scene is what eventually inspired Homer's story of Achilles fighting Hector after the death of Patroclus, reworked into the narrative of Troy with the original story lost to the ages in lieu of these seals left behind.
Should the Griffin warrior grave in the palace of Nestor turn out to be closer in time to the Mycenaean grave circle (dating off pottery isn't always the most reliable), I'd like to think that the Griffin warrior IS the warrior from the seal, with his greatest accomplishment immortalized in one of the finest works of art in that time, and that we have indeed found the grave of Achilles (or the inspiration thereof), just outside the timeline of various events compressed into a single fiction by 'Homer' and the oral tradition which survived the Greek Dark Ages.
- cgio 5y agoBased on dress my first impression would be that the fallen is not a comrade but a defeated enemy.
- elefanten 5y agoOr from the article: “The landmark find shows a warrior battling against two adversaries, killing one enemy, the other already dead at his feet.”
- adrian_b 5y agoThe reasons behind this conclusion are dubious. There are no other elements on which to decide to whom the dead one belongs, except his weapons, his hair and his dress. His weapons (sword and scabbard) are identical with those of the victorious warrior. He has long, tied hair like the victorious warrior and no helmet like that of the enemy is visible. Only his shorts might be more similar to those of the enemy, but even this is not certain, as most of the shorts of the enemy are behind his shield. So, in my opinion, the evidence is overwhelming for the fact that the dead man is not an enemy, but a comrade.
- adrian_b 5y agoTo be even more clear, the enemy was equipped with spear, helmet and shield, while both the victorious warrior and the dead warrior had none of those. Instead of those, they both had identical swords and scabbards. Taking into account this very obvious difference in the military equipment, I cannot understand what prompted someone to state that the fallen man belonged to the enemies.
- sovande 5y agoBoth have the same loincloth design and short hair.
- adrian_b 5y agoLook at the higher resolution photograph of the stone, not at the graphic sketch, which is slightly misleading. For the fallen man, you can see the back of his head, on which it is clear that the hair is shown, and not a helmet, as on the enemy. Besides the head, at the edge of the stone, there is something that looks like a ponytail, in the same way as the hair of the victorious warrior is shown. Moreover, the ponytail of both warriors is tied with a chord, which has at its 2 loose ends some kind of knots or decorations. The 2 ends of the chord are seen for both the victorious man and for the fallen man, and they look the same. The resolution of the photograph is not good enough to make the identification of the feature at the side of the head as a ponytail certain. Nevertheless, the hair on the back of the head and the presumed ponytail look very much, at least at this resolution, like the hair of the victorious warrior, and very unlike the helmet of the enemy. Because the enemy wears a helmet, we cannot know for sure whether his hair was short or long. We can presume that his hair was short, as otherwise the helmet might have been uncomfortable. Also from the loincloth of the enemy we see just a narrow edge, which is not covered by the shield. I agree that the lower edge of the loincloth is similar for the fallen man and for the enemy, and this is the only similarity between them. So we have: Pro the fallen man being an enemy: Similar lower edges of the loincloth. Contra the fallen man being an enemy: 1. Completely different military equipment, spear and helmet and shield versus sword with a scabbard of an unusual form (common to the fallen man and to the victorious man). 2. Long hair tied in a ponytail versus presumably short hair under the helmet The similar lower edges of the loincloth might be explained by all loincloths being similar. The victorious warrior might have been a richer warrior and he might have had some more expensive leather garment instead of a loincloth, like most other warriors.
- adrian_b 5y agoIt is not clear what kind of dress the fallen man had in comparison with the enemy (whose dress is obscured by some kind of shield). On the other hand, while the enemy fought with a spear, the fallen man had both a sword and a scabbard of exactly the same type as the victorious fighter. So based on the weapons, it seems more plausible that the fallen man was a comrade.
- sleightofmind 5y agoI concur. Notice the hem of the garment in both cases. The successful warrior's garment is not similar. I can't help but thinking I see two bodies on the ground, or a representation of the spirit leaving the body of the fallen. Perhaps I just perceived it incorrectly and can't shake that false first impression. Any explainers?
- robwwilliams 5y agoWhat a lovely notion!
- dr_dshiv 5y agoI’ve made a timeline that covers this period. Comments welcome: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVOC4jXo4=/ https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVOC4jXo4=/
- disqard 5y agoThank you for sharing this! It looks like a labor of love -- if you don't mind my asking: how long have you been curating this for? Also, have you tried using another tool/app for this, or did miro really work very well for all of your use-cases? Thanks!
- dr_dshiv 5y agoYes, love :) Also, for a live-streamed lecture on April 21 (https://embassyofthefreemind.com/en/plan-your-visit/agenda#Harmooonia https://embassyofthefreemind.com/en/plan-your-visit/agenda#H...) It’s based on much past research, but this actually took me just about two weeks to prepare. Obviously unfinished. I was thinking of developing something custom, but Miro is just about perfect, except for a desire to have pop up links (ie, click a title to expand info in the page) May I ask about your interest?
- disqard 5y agoI enjoy making and curating, and enjoys seeing that same urge expressed in others! In the past, I've used tools like FreeMind, only to be (eventually) be disappointed that the tool is dead, so now I have to migrate to (and learn) another tool, etc. Thanks for replying and for sharing the link!
- justinclift 5y agoFor anyone else clicking on this and seeing a blank canvas, you need to zoom way out for the timeline to show up. :)