12 ms·

For the past few years, pretty much everywhere I've traveled, either vacationing or living, I've picked up garbage. Three oceans, four continents, I can only of

by titzer 5y ago

For the past few years, pretty much everywhere I've traveled, either vacationing or living, I've picked up garbage. Three oceans, four continents, I can only offer my anecdotal experience of 500 bags or so, but holy good god damn. Our oceans are absolutely riddled with plastic pollution, to the tune of 8 million tons added annually. That's two pounds of plastic per person added to the oceans every year. It's too late to avoid the consequences. The planet is riddled with this junk. It's already been sucked up into Earth's massive recycling systems. Earth is just full-on blasting our ground-up waste right back at us and funneling it into our lungs and stomachs. Whatever the effect of microplastics is on human health, we can't escape the consequences now. Pretty much all you can do is hope it ain't too bad. And argue about it. Because it's here, it's getting worse, and it's going to be with us for a very long time.

88840-8855 5y ago
And we have done this in less than 100 years. I find this incredible and fascinating how much impact we had in such a short time. And to add one more thought. I still believe that we are too many people. Overpopulation has been proven not to be an existential that as we won't run out of resources, but i can imagine that those 8 billion of us are creating way too much trash that is impossible to handle. By the way. Just 15 years ago i learned in school that we are 6 billion. Today we are 8 billion already.
- titzer 5y ago
  If you watch a movie shot around a coastal ocean area before, oh, about 1990, it's likely that there was little to no ocean plastic there. Before 1960, and it was basically guaranteed, and before 1930 or so, plastic did not exist. Today, beaches are so bad that most places that don't have regular cleanup will accumulate visible amounts of plastic debris. Just think, every coastline in the world, literally tens of thousands of miles, are now washing up this floating garbage we produce. It's inescapable now. Pretty much every coastline in the world, you can find something, unless someone is actively cleaning it up, with a finetooth comb. Of course, it's much worse depending on the currents and how often cleanup might happen there. But damnit, after thousands of hours out there, I am cursed with the eyes of a hawk, I'll find a bottlecap, a ring, a bottle, some plastic bits, something. Anything blue or white or red is almost certainly plastic. It makes it bittersweet to watch movies shot at the beach anymore. Everything is tainted now. That old world is gone. Look away, I guess. Or get out your fine-toothed comb, stoop for hours, to pretend, for a few tide cycles, that there isn't a steady drip of this junk washing up.
  - trainsarebetter 5y ago
    This. I spend a lot of time on remote coastlines up in northern bc. hours, some times days from any civilization. There is plastic everywhere. lots of fishing supplies. But also a lot of commercial junk.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  People talk about how the Haber process of fixing nitrogen has averted starvation, but I wonder if in a century we'll be talking about how the Haber process created a plague of overpopulation.
  - 8note 5y ago
    Rich societies are generally plagued by a lack of reproduction, so I don't think that's likely as more of the world becomes rich
  - inkblotuniverse 5y ago
    I'm skeptical of the overpopulation meme as it exists in modern anglo culture, both in terms of predictive accuracy and origin/motivation. Birth rates plummet as soon as you introduce anglo culture, prosperity, women-in-the-workplace feminism, and perhaps some other secret sauce elements to a country. In the 1960s, western academics were confidently asserting there'd be mass starvation and societal collapse by now! I also think a lot of people have just been taught to hate humans. Misanthropy is mainstream; love for mankind- the thought that all else being equal, it's good for there to be more of us- is currently crass.
    - cwkoss 5y ago
      I don't think it's impossible for humans to provide a reasonable quality of life at this population, but I think it might be impossible to sustain the current growth rate without ever-increasing environmental destruction.
parineum 5y ago
> It's too late to avoid the consequences What _are_ the consequences? I'm legitimately unaware of any macro side effects of plastic pollution aside from it being ugly. I know microplastics are found in everything and that seems bad (I don't want to eat plastic) but is it actually harming me? That fact that it's so persistent leads me to believe that it's just passing right through animals and not really breaking down and polluting the environment (again, aside from being plastic in a place I don't want it).
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Some insist that it causes infertility issues, but the scientific jury is still out on this one.
  - parineum 5y ago
    This seems like the go-to FUD or, more likely, the possible consequence people glom onto when it's reported/suggested. Like you said though, jury is still out. I obviously don't expect it to turn out to be good for humanity but I just wonder if there's any documented side effect, to humanity or the ecosystem/biosphere. I have to imagine you can also find an amount of glass of similar similar size all around. The only saving grace for glass is that it doesn't float.
  - knodi123 5y ago
    of note, fertility issues were also one of the main symptoms of evil witchcraft, back in the days when witchcraft was considered a valid health concern.
    - wander_homer 5y ago
      Sure, let's compare some theories which are currently being investigated by scientists, which could explain the decline in fertility in the last decades in millions if not billions of people, with the folk tales when some men couldn't get an erection a couple hundred years ago.
hathawsh 5y ago
FWIW, I have long wondered where all the plastic trash in the ocean was coming from. A recent video [1] from Mark Rober was very enlightening: the trash from poor communities (without collection services) gets picked up by rain and wind and flows into waterways. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXDx6DjNLDU&t=353s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXDx6DjNLDU&t=353s
- titzer 5y ago
  I've seen stuff like this firsthand. It's hard to say for sure what makes up the bulk ocean-wide. A major issue is government corruption. It's highly likely that western money dumped into places like this to help improve the situation gets gobbled up by various boondoggles that do not end up making a dent. Case in point, I spent weeks in Fiji cleaning up garbage. The town got a grant from the central government for some hundreds of thousands of dollars to help their sanitation issues. They bought one garbage truck. Meanwhile, people were burning garbage in their backyards, or down the street, because they didn't want to pay the taxes associated with garbage service. And plenty would just dump on the beach at night. That was Fiji, which has a boatload of tourist money coming in and is rapidly developing. In Africa, shit looks bleak.
  - stephen_g 5y ago
    I've been enjoying watching (and supporting on Patreon) this American expat on YouTube [1] who is trying to solve this problem (both getting better garbage management in, and stopping rubbish getting washed into the ocean) where he lives on an island in the Philippines. The booms he's designed out of tires and bottles to put across the canals and block bottles and other plastic being washed out to sea seem to work very well - similar to what The Ocean Cleanup are doing with their 'Interceptors' but cleaned out by paying some locals with baskets and nets instead of a very expensive looking machine. 1. https://www.youtube.com/c/TropicalOceanCleanup https://www.youtube.com/c/TropicalOceanCleanup
hackernewds 5y ago
How can you hope it isn't bad? 1/3 adults will get heart disease, 2/5 will get cancer at some point of their adult life..
vardhanw 5y ago
A question I had was whether a completely plant based diet avoid ingestion of microplastics, as most articles I see are focused on the aquatic ecosystem (probably because the density of pollution in our seas is arguably more than terrestrial). A quick google search turns up a lot of articles on the deleterious effect on plants as well, so I guess there is no escape. But perhaps (hopefully) a plant based (e.g. PBHF) diet can mitigate some of the risks imminent on a meat (mainly seafood?) based diet.
- ggm 5y ago
  Economic use of post-treated sewage includes both greywater and sludge. Both are therefore presented to plants either in the root system or over green leaf material. I would argue its tiny amounts, and far less likely to be concentrated the way mercury is in apex predator fish (tuna, swordfish) -But it would be wrong to assume veg-heavy diet automatically removes some risk of ingested plastics, if they are micro sized, soluable, and can be taken up in transpiration or by absorption due to contact. I'm not wanting to oversell this: I think the plastics risk in food has been overstated for many people. Its a warning story about a risk side issue which has some extreme outliers. One survey I reviewed here after another HN story discussed Indian veg around a plastics factory which had a fire. I can assure you thats not normal agriculture practice, we don't routinely worldwide burn BPA containing plastic feedstock over our plants.
pabs3 5y ago
Lignin and cellulose in plants were at one time unable to be degraded by living organisms. Apparently plastic degradation is starting to evolve now, presumably that will continue. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/14/bugs-across-globe-are-evolving-to-eat-plastic-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/14/bugs-acr...
- hetspookjee 5y ago
  Quite interesting if that really becomes a thing. I mean imagine what would happen if it'd evolve to eat away paint and all the ships, bridges, etcetere start to eat into the paint and corrode. I do wonder what the excrement would be of said bacteries. I mean Bakelite for example consists of parts formaldehyde, if they poo that out we might got another interesting problem on our hands.

by titzer 5y ago

88840-8855 5y ago

And we have done this in less than 100 years. I find this incredible and fascinating how much impact we had in such a short time. And to add one more thought. I still believe that we are too many people. Overpopulation has been proven not to be an existential that as we won't run out of resources, but i can imagine that those 8 billion of us are creating way too much trash that is impossible to handle. By the way. Just 15 years ago i learned in school that we are 6 billion. Today we are 8 billion already.

titzer 5y ago
If you watch a movie shot around a coastal ocean area before, oh, about 1990, it's likely that there was little to no ocean plastic there. Before 1960, and it was basically guaranteed, and before 1930 or so, plastic did not exist. Today, beaches are so bad that most places that don't have regular cleanup will accumulate visible amounts of plastic debris. Just think, every coastline in the world, literally tens of thousands of miles, are now washing up this floating garbage we produce. It's inescapable now. Pretty much every coastline in the world, you can find something, unless someone is actively cleaning it up, with a finetooth comb. Of course, it's much worse depending on the currents and how often cleanup might happen there. But damnit, after thousands of hours out there, I am cursed with the eyes of a hawk, I'll find a bottlecap, a ring, a bottle, some plastic bits, something. Anything blue or white or red is almost certainly plastic. It makes it bittersweet to watch movies shot at the beach anymore. Everything is tainted now. That old world is gone. Look away, I guess. Or get out your fine-toothed comb, stoop for hours, to pretend, for a few tide cycles, that there isn't a steady drip of this junk washing up.
- trainsarebetter 5y ago
  This. I spend a lot of time on remote coastlines up in northern bc. hours, some times days from any civilization. There is plastic everywhere. lots of fishing supplies. But also a lot of commercial junk.
cwkoss 5y ago
People talk about how the Haber process of fixing nitrogen has averted starvation, but I wonder if in a century we'll be talking about how the Haber process created a plague of overpopulation.
- 8note 5y ago
  Rich societies are generally plagued by a lack of reproduction, so I don't think that's likely as more of the world becomes rich
- inkblotuniverse 5y ago
  I'm skeptical of the overpopulation meme as it exists in modern anglo culture, both in terms of predictive accuracy and origin/motivation. Birth rates plummet as soon as you introduce anglo culture, prosperity, women-in-the-workplace feminism, and perhaps some other secret sauce elements to a country. In the 1960s, western academics were confidently asserting there'd be mass starvation and societal collapse by now! I also think a lot of people have just been taught to hate humans. Misanthropy is mainstream; love for mankind- the thought that all else being equal, it's good for there to be more of us- is currently crass.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    I don't think it's impossible for humans to provide a reasonable quality of life at this population, but I think it might be impossible to sustain the current growth rate without ever-increasing environmental destruction.

parineum 5y ago

> It's too late to avoid the consequences What _are_ the consequences? I'm legitimately unaware of any macro side effects of plastic pollution aside from it being ugly. I know microplastics are found in everything and that seems bad (I don't want to eat plastic) but is it actually harming me? That fact that it's so persistent leads me to believe that it's just passing right through animals and not really breaking down and polluting the environment (again, aside from being plastic in a place I don't want it).

missedthecue 5y ago
Some insist that it causes infertility issues, but the scientific jury is still out on this one.
- parineum 5y ago
  This seems like the go-to FUD or, more likely, the possible consequence people glom onto when it's reported/suggested. Like you said though, jury is still out. I obviously don't expect it to turn out to be good for humanity but I just wonder if there's any documented side effect, to humanity or the ecosystem/biosphere. I have to imagine you can also find an amount of glass of similar similar size all around. The only saving grace for glass is that it doesn't float.
- knodi123 5y ago
  of note, fertility issues were also one of the main symptoms of evil witchcraft, back in the days when witchcraft was considered a valid health concern.
  - wander_homer 5y ago
    Sure, let's compare some theories which are currently being investigated by scientists, which could explain the decline in fertility in the last decades in millions if not billions of people, with the folk tales when some men couldn't get an erection a couple hundred years ago.

hathawsh 5y ago

FWIW, I have long wondered where all the plastic trash in the ocean was coming from. A recent video [1] from Mark Rober was very enlightening: the trash from poor communities (without collection services) gets picked up by rain and wind and flows into waterways. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXDx6DjNLDU&t=353s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXDx6DjNLDU&t=353s

titzer 5y ago
I've seen stuff like this firsthand. It's hard to say for sure what makes up the bulk ocean-wide. A major issue is government corruption. It's highly likely that western money dumped into places like this to help improve the situation gets gobbled up by various boondoggles that do not end up making a dent. Case in point, I spent weeks in Fiji cleaning up garbage. The town got a grant from the central government for some hundreds of thousands of dollars to help their sanitation issues. They bought one garbage truck. Meanwhile, people were burning garbage in their backyards, or down the street, because they didn't want to pay the taxes associated with garbage service. And plenty would just dump on the beach at night. That was Fiji, which has a boatload of tourist money coming in and is rapidly developing. In Africa, shit looks bleak.
- stephen_g 5y ago
  I've been enjoying watching (and supporting on Patreon) this American expat on YouTube [1] who is trying to solve this problem (both getting better garbage management in, and stopping rubbish getting washed into the ocean) where he lives on an island in the Philippines. The booms he's designed out of tires and bottles to put across the canals and block bottles and other plastic being washed out to sea seem to work very well - similar to what The Ocean Cleanup are doing with their 'Interceptors' but cleaned out by paying some locals with baskets and nets instead of a very expensive looking machine. 1. https://www.youtube.com/c/TropicalOceanCleanup https://www.youtube.com/c/TropicalOceanCleanup

hackernewds 5y ago

How can you hope it isn't bad? 1/3 adults will get heart disease, 2/5 will get cancer at some point of their adult life..

vardhanw 5y ago

A question I had was whether a completely plant based diet avoid ingestion of microplastics, as most articles I see are focused on the aquatic ecosystem (probably because the density of pollution in our seas is arguably more than terrestrial). A quick google search turns up a lot of articles on the deleterious effect on plants as well, so I guess there is no escape. But perhaps (hopefully) a plant based (e.g. PBHF) diet can mitigate some of the risks imminent on a meat (mainly seafood?) based diet.

ggm 5y ago
Economic use of post-treated sewage includes both greywater and sludge. Both are therefore presented to plants either in the root system or over green leaf material. I would argue its tiny amounts, and far less likely to be concentrated the way mercury is in apex predator fish (tuna, swordfish) -But it would be wrong to assume veg-heavy diet automatically removes some risk of ingested plastics, if they are micro sized, soluable, and can be taken up in transpiration or by absorption due to contact. I'm not wanting to oversell this: I think the plastics risk in food has been overstated for many people. Its a warning story about a risk side issue which has some extreme outliers. One survey I reviewed here after another HN story discussed Indian veg around a plastics factory which had a fire. I can assure you thats not normal agriculture practice, we don't routinely worldwide burn BPA containing plastic feedstock over our plants.

pabs3 5y ago

Lignin and cellulose in plants were at one time unable to be degraded by living organisms. Apparently plastic degradation is starting to evolve now, presumably that will continue. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/14/bugs-across-globe-are-evolving-to-eat-plastic-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/14/bugs-acr...

hetspookjee 5y ago
Quite interesting if that really becomes a thing. I mean imagine what would happen if it'd evolve to eat away paint and all the ships, bridges, etcetere start to eat into the paint and corrode. I do wonder what the excrement would be of said bacteries. I mean Bakelite for example consists of parts formaldehyde, if they poo that out we might got another interesting problem on our hands.