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There is no "yet". NATO consistently refused repeated requests of Ukraine to join. Even the Ukrainians themselves weren't too much interested before Putin start

There is no "yet". NATO consistently refused repeated requests of Ukraine to join. Even the Ukrainians themselves weren't too much interested before Putin started the war in 2014 (<30% in 2012, almost 70% five years later). The situation of Ukrainians is simply tragic, they never had any real choice. They could either become Putin's slaves or face a bloody war. They made their choice hoping he would not attack but were mistaken, and now they have to pay. After the war is over the whole Europe will start rebuilding their country, but nobody will revive the ones killed by Putin's army.

yucky 5y ago
>Even the Ukrainians themselves weren't too much interested before Putin started the war in 2014 Why do you think Putin invaded in 2014? Remember they had a coup in Ukraine, and the new regime was very anti-Russia. Immediately after the 2014 coup the new US-approved government changed the Constitution to the 2004 version which allowed for a vote to join NATO[1]. So then Russia invaded Crimea as a result, since by NATO rule, a country not in control of its borders would not be eligible to join NATO. Then in December 2014 Ukraine voted to abandon neutrality and begin the process of getting into NATO anyway.[2] Trump's presidency definitely put a pause on this plan, which is why there were no/limited hostilities in those 4 years. But now that Biden is back on top, Ukraine has been pushing towards NATO again. And that isn't to excuse Russia, but we have to be honest about what these triggers are. This isn't happening in a vacuum. [1] https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrali...
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  > Why do you think Putin invaded in 2014? Because I don't know a single person who believes otherwise. And I doubt he would dare to start the war in Donbas back then if he hadn't been emboldened by his success in Crimea. I talked to my Crimean friends back then, some of them had high hopes related to what would happen if Crimea became Russian. Somehow, none of these hopes materialized. No big stream of rich Russians coming and leaving big stack of rubles there - maybe even less after the annexation. As for Donbas, I had some Russian friends there; most left in 2014 - and obviously were very pro-Russian back then. They were very bitter about the Ukrainian government and hoped - just like Crimeans - that Putin will magically make everything right, that Kharkiv will become second Saint Petersburg. They soon realized the folks Putin sent were the worst thugs, the scum of the earth. To quote one of my friends, "For these people to kill a man was like spitting". Still, many people had a good opinion of Putin, putting all blame on the Ukrainian government. That is, until the shelling of Kharkiv begun. Then they realized the truth, but it was too late. It is still mind-boggling to me. Why did he decide to start killing his own people? There was so much good will for him in this city, there is none left. Unbelievable. BTW the aspirations of Ukraine you mention is just one part of the story; Ukraine doesn't decide whether they can join NATO - member states of NATO do. So far, everybody was against, including the USA, France, and Germany. Maybe the war changes it, but I doubt it.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >Because I don't know a single person who believes otherwise. No, I'm saying what do you think the reason was for Russia annexing Crimea? Especially considering the fact that they did it the day after the 2014 Ukrainian coup. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why it happened.
    - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
      I believe its is roughly consistent with Putin's vision of Ukraine as presented internally and also externally [0]. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20220226224717/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220226224717/https://ria.ru/20...

yucky 5y ago

>Even the Ukrainians themselves weren't too much interested before Putin started the war in 2014 Why do you think Putin invaded in 2014? Remember they had a coup in Ukraine, and the new regime was very anti-Russia. Immediately after the 2014 coup the new US-approved government changed the Constitution to the 2004 version which allowed for a vote to join NATO[1]. So then Russia invaded Crimea as a result, since by NATO rule, a country not in control of its borders would not be eligible to join NATO. Then in December 2014 Ukraine voted to abandon neutrality and begin the process of getting into NATO anyway.[2] Trump's presidency definitely put a pause on this plan, which is why there were no/limited hostilities in those 4 years. But now that Biden is back on top, Ukraine has been pushing towards NATO again. And that isn't to excuse Russia, but we have to be honest about what these triggers are. This isn't happening in a vacuum. [1] https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrali...

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
> Why do you think Putin invaded in 2014? Because I don't know a single person who believes otherwise. And I doubt he would dare to start the war in Donbas back then if he hadn't been emboldened by his success in Crimea. I talked to my Crimean friends back then, some of them had high hopes related to what would happen if Crimea became Russian. Somehow, none of these hopes materialized. No big stream of rich Russians coming and leaving big stack of rubles there - maybe even less after the annexation. As for Donbas, I had some Russian friends there; most left in 2014 - and obviously were very pro-Russian back then. They were very bitter about the Ukrainian government and hoped - just like Crimeans - that Putin will magically make everything right, that Kharkiv will become second Saint Petersburg. They soon realized the folks Putin sent were the worst thugs, the scum of the earth. To quote one of my friends, "For these people to kill a man was like spitting". Still, many people had a good opinion of Putin, putting all blame on the Ukrainian government. That is, until the shelling of Kharkiv begun. Then they realized the truth, but it was too late. It is still mind-boggling to me. Why did he decide to start killing his own people? There was so much good will for him in this city, there is none left. Unbelievable. BTW the aspirations of Ukraine you mention is just one part of the story; Ukraine doesn't decide whether they can join NATO - member states of NATO do. So far, everybody was against, including the USA, France, and Germany. Maybe the war changes it, but I doubt it.
- yucky 5y ago
  >Because I don't know a single person who believes otherwise. No, I'm saying what do you think the reason was for Russia annexing Crimea? Especially considering the fact that they did it the day after the 2014 Ukrainian coup. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why it happened.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    I believe its is roughly consistent with Putin's vision of Ukraine as presented internally and also externally [0]. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20220226224717/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220226224717/https://ria.ru/20...