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Ask the people you're talking to where the teammates are, the expectations of return to office. Ask them in the very first call. Either they'll be offended beca

Ask the people you're talking to where the teammates are, the expectations of return to office. Ask them in the very first call. Either they'll be offended because they probably have nefarious plans (dodged a huge time waste), or they'll happily explain how their team is spread across 4 timezones and could never return to the office since there isn't one. Sadly "remote" is just a buzzword to a lot of people. But on the flip side a lot of companies are truly serious about it.

calvinmorrison 5y ago
At my last role, I got all the way to the "signing your hiring paperwork" to find out that vaccines were mandatory for all new hires. Seeing as that's 30% of the workforce or so who isn't, and this being a senior level position, and a year more after they were first available (meaning, anyone who wanted to get a vaccine - probably would have already)... you'd think they'd bring that up day one. I about flipped shit on the recruiter.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  People just assume anyone with a reasonable amount of common sense would be fine with it I imagine.
  - calvinmorrison 5y ago
    It seems bizarre to me you wouldn't put requirements up front, which seems to be what this thread is complaining about. Thank you for implying I am a moron
    - noasaservice 5y ago
      Well, you are a moron for refusing a free vaccine that significantly reduces chance of getting covid, AND lessens severity of ailments if you do get it. I'd say it was a bullet dodged by the company.
      - calvinmorrison 5y ago
        I'm good thanks - I don't take medical advise (free or not) from people who call me nasty names online
  - tdfx 5y ago
    There's millions of people that have already been infected with COVID and receive no calculable benefit from taking a vaccine. While the vaccine has been proven to be safe and effective, there are rare side effects that some people might not want to expose themselves to for no reason. Springing that blanket requirement on people at the end of the hiring process is a shitty move.
    - fanf2 5y ago
      There are significant benefits to getting the vaccine after infection https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html
      - tdfx 5y ago
        I really wish people would read their sources, and specifically with the CDC, read the sources the CDC is using. The CDC page you referenced uses https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm as its only source for this recommendation. The study monitors outcomes for a group that were all infected at some point in 2020. The vaccine was released at the end of 2020. The study monitors the infection status of these people in May-June 2021. It's purposefully selecting people who had no recent exposure via natural infection and comparing them to people that recently had the vaccine. I don't know how they can use this to support their recommendation with a straight face.
        civilized 5y ago
        I don't understand your point. People who say "I don't need the vaccine because I already had COVID" never qualify that with how recent their natural infection was. Many of them assume that having it once is forever enough, like with chickenpox. The study shows that this common belief is wrong.
        tdfx 5y ago
        Neither the vaccine or infection will protect against reinfection indefinitely. That much I believe everyone is in agreement with. If you had natural infection or the vaccine a year ago or more, you will likely be reinfected with the most recent strain, typically with mild or no symptoms. My point about the study was that it specifically selecting people who were recently vaccinated vs. people whose natural exposure was the prior year. Of course the vaccinated people whose immune systems were recently exposed to the spike protein had lower reinfection rates.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    I don't think he's concerned with common sense. Or even vaccines. His entire HN biography: "i write for shock value, if you are shocked, thank you!"
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Maybe a year ago you could make a comment like that when everyone was locked down but the vaccines don't work anymore for the current variant. Common sense needs to be updated
- bumbledraven 5y ago
  If it's that important to you, it probably wouldn't hurt to get a prospective employer's vaccine policy in writing before accepting an offer. You can ask for that without revealing your own views on the subject.
  - calvinmorrison 5y ago
    I guess, I have never before been asked to meet any vaccine requirement in my professional career, and all health and safety requirements are typically listed up front, including steel toed shoes and lifting up to 50lbs, I don't know why I would have to ask an endless list of requirements.
- civilized 5y ago
  I am pro-vaccine but I agree with you that this should be disclosed upfront. Seems like downvoters are having a knee-jerk reaction of EVIL ANTIVAXXER and not listening to the actual point made.
- wwweston 5y ago
  I think it's pretty reasonable to require vaccination as a condition for participating in some settings. Office settings being one of them. But that said, I dislike surprises in employment agreement terms, and I've started to ask for people to send over their employment agreement along with offer letters so I can include terms in negotiation.
vmception 5y ago
I have a couple friends obsessed with the “digital nomad” term and are swayed by things and jobs with terms like remote or digital nomad That crowd is almost incapable of just applying for jobs that have always been remote, if the job description doesn't lead with that in the title. Many software startups and the development consultancies they rely on have been this way for many years. So instead they get led on by things catering to the remote and digital nomad industry than just having a job that already had supported the lifestyle they wanted!
WorldMaker 5y ago
So far that has been my experience with a handful of FAANG interviews the last couple of years: I get a recruiter coming to me talking about 100% remote positions. I get to phone interviews, ask the people I'm actually interviewing with what their thoughts on remote work are and am honest that I'd be most interested in 100% remote myself (but I am flexible on it). Most of those stopped at the phone interview because it was generally clear the recruiter telling me that 100% remote options were on the table had me interviewing with 100% "can't wait to get back to the office" teams.
snorkel 5y ago
Good advice, and should also ask if the team was mostly WFH before Covid because old habits die hard.

calvinmorrison 5y ago

At my last role, I got all the way to the "signing your hiring paperwork" to find out that vaccines were mandatory for all new hires. Seeing as that's 30% of the workforce or so who isn't, and this being a senior level position, and a year more after they were first available (meaning, anyone who wanted to get a vaccine - probably would have already)... you'd think they'd bring that up day one. I about flipped shit on the recruiter.

breakfastduck 5y ago
People just assume anyone with a reasonable amount of common sense would be fine with it I imagine.
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  It seems bizarre to me you wouldn't put requirements up front, which seems to be what this thread is complaining about. Thank you for implying I am a moron
  - noasaservice 5y ago
    Well, you are a moron for refusing a free vaccine that significantly reduces chance of getting covid, AND lessens severity of ailments if you do get it. I'd say it was a bullet dodged by the company.
    - calvinmorrison 5y ago
      I'm good thanks - I don't take medical advise (free or not) from people who call me nasty names online
- tdfx 5y ago
  There's millions of people that have already been infected with COVID and receive no calculable benefit from taking a vaccine. While the vaccine has been proven to be safe and effective, there are rare side effects that some people might not want to expose themselves to for no reason. Springing that blanket requirement on people at the end of the hiring process is a shitty move.
  - fanf2 5y ago
    There are significant benefits to getting the vaccine after infection https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html
    - tdfx 5y ago
      I really wish people would read their sources, and specifically with the CDC, read the sources the CDC is using. The CDC page you referenced uses https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm as its only source for this recommendation. The study monitors outcomes for a group that were all infected at some point in 2020. The vaccine was released at the end of 2020. The study monitors the infection status of these people in May-June 2021. It's purposefully selecting people who had no recent exposure via natural infection and comparing them to people that recently had the vaccine. I don't know how they can use this to support their recommendation with a straight face.
      - civilized 5y ago
        I don't understand your point. People who say "I don't need the vaccine because I already had COVID" never qualify that with how recent their natural infection was. Many of them assume that having it once is forever enough, like with chickenpox. The study shows that this common belief is wrong.
        tdfx 5y ago
        Neither the vaccine or infection will protect against reinfection indefinitely. That much I believe everyone is in agreement with. If you had natural infection or the vaccine a year ago or more, you will likely be reinfected with the most recent strain, typically with mild or no symptoms. My point about the study was that it specifically selecting people who were recently vaccinated vs. people whose natural exposure was the prior year. Of course the vaccinated people whose immune systems were recently exposed to the spike protein had lower reinfection rates.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  I don't think he's concerned with common sense. Or even vaccines. His entire HN biography: "i write for shock value, if you are shocked, thank you!"
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Maybe a year ago you could make a comment like that when everyone was locked down but the vaccines don't work anymore for the current variant. Common sense needs to be updated
bumbledraven 5y ago
If it's that important to you, it probably wouldn't hurt to get a prospective employer's vaccine policy in writing before accepting an offer. You can ask for that without revealing your own views on the subject.
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  I guess, I have never before been asked to meet any vaccine requirement in my professional career, and all health and safety requirements are typically listed up front, including steel toed shoes and lifting up to 50lbs, I don't know why I would have to ask an endless list of requirements.
civilized 5y ago
I am pro-vaccine but I agree with you that this should be disclosed upfront. Seems like downvoters are having a knee-jerk reaction of EVIL ANTIVAXXER and not listening to the actual point made.
wwweston 5y ago
I think it's pretty reasonable to require vaccination as a condition for participating in some settings. Office settings being one of them. But that said, I dislike surprises in employment agreement terms, and I've started to ask for people to send over their employment agreement along with offer letters so I can include terms in negotiation.

vmception 5y ago

I have a couple friends obsessed with the “digital nomad” term and are swayed by things and jobs with terms like remote or digital nomad That crowd is almost incapable of just applying for jobs that have always been remote, if the job description doesn't lead with that in the title. Many software startups and the development consultancies they rely on have been this way for many years. So instead they get led on by things catering to the remote and digital nomad industry than just having a job that already had supported the lifestyle they wanted!

WorldMaker 5y ago

So far that has been my experience with a handful of FAANG interviews the last couple of years: I get a recruiter coming to me talking about 100% remote positions. I get to phone interviews, ask the people I'm actually interviewing with what their thoughts on remote work are and am honest that I'd be most interested in 100% remote myself (but I am flexible on it). Most of those stopped at the phone interview because it was generally clear the recruiter telling me that 100% remote options were on the table had me interviewing with 100% "can't wait to get back to the office" teams.

snorkel 5y ago

Good advice, and should also ask if the team was mostly WFH before Covid because old habits die hard.