7 ms·

This is very anecdotal, but I have a friend that interviewed at Google for a Remote SWE position - everything indicated that it was remote: the posting, the rec

This is very anecdotal, but I have a friend that interviewed at Google for a Remote SWE position - everything indicated that it was remote: the posting, the recruiter and the hiring manager. Now they announced RTO, his manager said: "We're excited to have you at the office" - he was really confused about this messaging, so they forced him to apply to work remotely (even if he had been hired as such) denied his application on the grounds that this SWE role that requires a lot of cross regional interaction and virtual meetings - requires "intense collaboration that you can only get in an office". Total BS. Needless to say he's leaving. This is such a travesty, total misdirection.

sjg007 4y ago
Your friend probably has a claim against the company for breach of contract. When people leave a job to join a new one and incur expenses and then the new company lays them off or fires them for no fault then the judges usually side with the employee.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Indeed, and then he finds that not only is there breach of contract but that the company is also quite vindictive and will use any kind of claim as a reason to not even consider hiring you in the future, assuming that it stays within the one company and doesn't get passed around between recruiters.
  - iooi 4y ago
    Every background check that companies put you through include any history of litigation against employers, no need for recruiters to talk to each other.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      I can understand at least the reasoning behind checking criminal history of potential hirings (even though as an European, I disagree with the concept on a fundamental level and it's illegal in Germany to demand a criminal record check outside of very specific industries). But how on earth do civil lawsuit records in the US end up anywhere where the background-checking industry can get their grubby paws on them?!
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - jrochkind1 4y ago
        The simple answer to "how do civil lawsuit records end up where they can get their hands on them" is that civil lawsuit records are of course public, and available to anyone who wants them. Although I haven't specifically heard of this one before. Are civil suit records not public not in Germany? But hearing that a criminal history check is illegal in Germany outside of specific industries continues to reinforce my belief that everything just works right in Germany. How do I get residency?
        sveme 4y ago
        I would not know how to access such records. Doubt they are publicly available. Germany isn‘t perfect, but if you want to come, the blue card process is pretty straightforward. If you do python backend stuff, talk to me.
        jrochkind1 4y ago
        Alas, no, ruby. Does the "blue card process" require a job offer? Looks like yes, good to know that if you have that, it can be done. https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/eu-blue-card-germany/ https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/eu... I wonder where I'd find software job postings in Germany (or possibly other EU) that are suitable for blue card (looks like salary must be sufficient, possibly other requirements). It is increasingly apparent to me that the USA is a fully broken society, and a dangerous place to live.
        sveme 4y ago
        There are job seeker visa as well, so that you can travel to Germany with the intention of finding a job. I'm currently recruiting an Indian engineer and he indicated that it'll take him about 2 months to get the visa. > General Work Permit – You can apply for this type of German work permit if you have found a job in Germany which could not have been filled by an EU national. You don’t need to have extraordinary skills as long as you are qualified for the job. Highly Skilled Worker Permit – You can apply for this type of work permit if you are a highly skilled worker with a lot of experience and a high income. The EU Blue Card for Germany – You can apply for an EU Blue Card if your salary will be at least €56,800 per year or €44,304 per year if you are in a shortage occupation. Software Devs are in such demand that any of these conditions are easily fulfilled.
  - sillysaurusx 4y ago
    Have you seen this happen in practice?
- mason55 4y ago
  "Promissory estoppel" is the term here as it's unlikely there was any actual breach of contract.
  - sjg007 4y ago
    Yes, this is what I was thinking of.
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  If there was in fact a contract. Most employment is at-will.
- RangerScience 4y ago
  Signing for my current job, I learned that there's a legal concept for "quitting with reason", which is essentially the inverse of "firing for cause". Among a few other things, if it procs (which is excessively unlikely), my stock grant is accelerated. The concept amounts to "a material change in working conditions", and covers pay, work load and type, work location, and location in the hierarchy (aka demotions, even if the company doesn't call it one). (It's also why I made sure my paperwork specified "remote" rather than "LA")
brazzledazzle 4y ago
Considering how aggressively they prune candidates with their "false positives are better than hiring someone bad" policy you'd think they'd be more motivated to retain people they hire.
sweettea 4y ago
I too interviewed at Google for a remote position; we got through team matching, and I'd found a great new potential manager, before one of his bosses nixed the idea of me being permanently remote. My recruiter ended up finding me another team match under a different director where I could be permanently remote, but the delay and difficulty was a major factor in me going to Facebook, which has a strong commitment to remote work. Just to be clear, I really loved my Google recruiters -- they were very forthright and open with me during the whole process, and the Facebook recruiter was honest too. Great recruiting experiences. They worked really hard to move fast, and I think I went from initial phone screen to offer at FB within two weeks, and from phone screen to team matching at Google within three.
- cvhashim 4y ago
  G is losing candidates given how long the team matching process takes place.
  - dymk 4y ago
    I know multiple people (including myself) who have passed up opportunities at Google because of how long it takes for them to make a hiring decision. It's incredible how much value they must be leaving on the table. At some point, Google won't be the kind of place that people wait around for. Then they're really screwed.
    - caffeine 4y ago
      It’s worse than that: the only people who hang around are the ones they probably wouldn’t want. Their hiring model is theoretically a bell curve but when you cut off the top percentiles it severely affects the resulting performance (ie you failed to hire the 20% of ppl who were going to do 80% of the good work)
    - dont__panic 4y ago
      Their hiring process could use some serious streamlining. When I've applied in the past, it seems like recruiters have a good half hour to an hour of mandatory spheal about how their "unique" interview process works... and even if you try to tell them that you've done these kinds of interviews before, and even interviewed with Google successfully but turned an offer down before, they'll still helpfully offer you their "insider tips" to... read cracking the coding interview and brush up on data structures. God forbid you have an unusual niche in industry -- last time I applied, the recruiter took at least two weeks with regular calls to update me on their attempt to get me an interview for the niche I work in. Google's software output definitely reflects just how bureaucratic and convoluted their hiring process has become.
cvhashim 4y ago
Meanwhile FAANG leadership are taking meetings in their mountain homes and beach houses in the Mediterranean while we plebs are expected to commute on the daily.
unethical_ban 4y ago
I think that WFH has major downsides for collaboration, but I agree with the sentiment on this thread: If they say it's remote, it should be remote. The easy thing to do, I would think, would be to demand in the hiring contract specific language guaranteeing 90%+ "remote" work.

sjg007 4y ago

Your friend probably has a claim against the company for breach of contract. When people leave a job to join a new one and incur expenses and then the new company lays them off or fires them for no fault then the judges usually side with the employee.

jacquesm 4y ago
Indeed, and then he finds that not only is there breach of contract but that the company is also quite vindictive and will use any kind of claim as a reason to not even consider hiring you in the future, assuming that it stays within the one company and doesn't get passed around between recruiters.
- iooi 4y ago
  Every background check that companies put you through include any history of litigation against employers, no need for recruiters to talk to each other.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    I can understand at least the reasoning behind checking criminal history of potential hirings (even though as an European, I disagree with the concept on a fundamental level and it's illegal in Germany to demand a criminal record check outside of very specific industries). But how on earth do civil lawsuit records in the US end up anywhere where the background-checking industry can get their grubby paws on them?!
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      The simple answer to "how do civil lawsuit records end up where they can get their hands on them" is that civil lawsuit records are of course public, and available to anyone who wants them. Although I haven't specifically heard of this one before. Are civil suit records not public not in Germany? But hearing that a criminal history check is illegal in Germany outside of specific industries continues to reinforce my belief that everything just works right in Germany. How do I get residency?
      - sveme 4y ago
        I would not know how to access such records. Doubt they are publicly available. Germany isn‘t perfect, but if you want to come, the blue card process is pretty straightforward. If you do python backend stuff, talk to me.
        jrochkind1 4y ago
        Alas, no, ruby. Does the "blue card process" require a job offer? Looks like yes, good to know that if you have that, it can be done. https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/eu-blue-card-germany/ https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/eu... I wonder where I'd find software job postings in Germany (or possibly other EU) that are suitable for blue card (looks like salary must be sufficient, possibly other requirements). It is increasingly apparent to me that the USA is a fully broken society, and a dangerous place to live.
        sveme 4y ago
        There are job seeker visa as well, so that you can travel to Germany with the intention of finding a job. I'm currently recruiting an Indian engineer and he indicated that it'll take him about 2 months to get the visa. > General Work Permit – You can apply for this type of German work permit if you have found a job in Germany which could not have been filled by an EU national. You don’t need to have extraordinary skills as long as you are qualified for the job. Highly Skilled Worker Permit – You can apply for this type of work permit if you are a highly skilled worker with a lot of experience and a high income. The EU Blue Card for Germany – You can apply for an EU Blue Card if your salary will be at least €56,800 per year or €44,304 per year if you are in a shortage occupation. Software Devs are in such demand that any of these conditions are easily fulfilled.
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  Have you seen this happen in practice?
mason55 4y ago
"Promissory estoppel" is the term here as it's unlikely there was any actual breach of contract.
- sjg007 4y ago
  Yes, this is what I was thinking of.
throwawayboise 4y ago
If there was in fact a contract. Most employment is at-will.
RangerScience 4y ago
Signing for my current job, I learned that there's a legal concept for "quitting with reason", which is essentially the inverse of "firing for cause". Among a few other things, if it procs (which is excessively unlikely), my stock grant is accelerated. The concept amounts to "a material change in working conditions", and covers pay, work load and type, work location, and location in the hierarchy (aka demotions, even if the company doesn't call it one). (It's also why I made sure my paperwork specified "remote" rather than "LA")

brazzledazzle 4y ago

Considering how aggressively they prune candidates with their "false positives are better than hiring someone bad" policy you'd think they'd be more motivated to retain people they hire.

sweettea 4y ago

I too interviewed at Google for a remote position; we got through team matching, and I'd found a great new potential manager, before one of his bosses nixed the idea of me being permanently remote. My recruiter ended up finding me another team match under a different director where I could be permanently remote, but the delay and difficulty was a major factor in me going to Facebook, which has a strong commitment to remote work. Just to be clear, I really loved my Google recruiters -- they were very forthright and open with me during the whole process, and the Facebook recruiter was honest too. Great recruiting experiences. They worked really hard to move fast, and I think I went from initial phone screen to offer at FB within two weeks, and from phone screen to team matching at Google within three.

cvhashim 4y ago
G is losing candidates given how long the team matching process takes place.
- dymk 4y ago
  I know multiple people (including myself) who have passed up opportunities at Google because of how long it takes for them to make a hiring decision. It's incredible how much value they must be leaving on the table. At some point, Google won't be the kind of place that people wait around for. Then they're really screwed.
  - caffeine 4y ago
    It’s worse than that: the only people who hang around are the ones they probably wouldn’t want. Their hiring model is theoretically a bell curve but when you cut off the top percentiles it severely affects the resulting performance (ie you failed to hire the 20% of ppl who were going to do 80% of the good work)
  - dont__panic 4y ago
    Their hiring process could use some serious streamlining. When I've applied in the past, it seems like recruiters have a good half hour to an hour of mandatory spheal about how their "unique" interview process works... and even if you try to tell them that you've done these kinds of interviews before, and even interviewed with Google successfully but turned an offer down before, they'll still helpfully offer you their "insider tips" to... read cracking the coding interview and brush up on data structures. God forbid you have an unusual niche in industry -- last time I applied, the recruiter took at least two weeks with regular calls to update me on their attempt to get me an interview for the niche I work in. Google's software output definitely reflects just how bureaucratic and convoluted their hiring process has become.

cvhashim 4y ago

Meanwhile FAANG leadership are taking meetings in their mountain homes and beach houses in the Mediterranean while we plebs are expected to commute on the daily.

unethical_ban 4y ago

I think that WFH has major downsides for collaboration, but I agree with the sentiment on this thread: If they say it's remote, it should be remote. The easy thing to do, I would think, would be to demand in the hiring contract specific language guaranteeing 90%+ "remote" work.