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>the solution was building more robust applications and letting the HIG evolve around it. This is literally exactly what is happening in libadwaita. The styles

>the solution was building more robust applications and letting the HIG evolve around it. This is literally exactly what is happening in libadwaita. The stylesheets are still there but the apps are more robust by enforcing the use of particular styles. I don't know what else you would expect here. In this situation "more robust" is always going to mean restricting the theme options to a subset which we know works. >Unfortunately, the lead GNOME maintainers never asked for the community opinion This is a nonsensical statement and is a misunderstanding of how open source works. Decisions are not made based on "community opinions" they're made by those who show up and do the work. It would make no sense for any open source maintainer to ask for "community opinions". Of course if you ask random commenters on Hacker News and Slashdot if they want you to develop all kinds of impossible features and give it to them for free, they will always say yes. >Like I said, it has given us no functional changes in any of the apps Again please check those screenshots in the blog. The recoloring functionality there would not be possible in GTK3. It's not very fun to talk to you when you repeatedly ignore what I'm saying.

smoldesu 5y ago
We're at an impasse. You're pointing to some changed colors and saying "see! they still let you make changes!" while I'm arguing that obfuscating the pre-existing theming interfaces is a pointless endeavor since nobody got anything out of it. Users have their hands tied. Developers lose the flexibility they once had with the toolkit. The idea of a "native" app has gone out the window. The only people who win here are the Flatpak folks who are just dying for people to dumb down their apps to work around the shortcomings of their "next generation" package manager. I'm not even going to argue this with you since there's nothing to argue about. The book is closed. GTK4 and Libadwaita are direct regressions from the functionality we had with GTK3 and libhandy. You can argue that these regressions exist for a purpose, and you can point to purported upcoming features and their purported upcoming functionality, but none of that changes what things look like right now. At the end of the day, as both a user and a developer, I need functionality. If you take that away from me, you can't also expect me to go along with whatever you're proposing for the future.
- throwaway82652 5y ago
  >We're at an impasse. No we're not, you're ignoring what I'm saying. Nothing was obfuscated and developers and users didn't lose any flexibility. Take a look at those screenshots. Developers actually have more flexibility here because now they have recoloring in addition to the traditional stylesheets. I don't understand what this has to do with flatpak either, that's not really any different from the other package managers as far as themes go. >GTK4 and Libadwaita are direct regressions from the functionality we had with GTK3 and libhandy. No, this is absurdly and egregiously wrong and the book is not closed. The only thing that's really happened here is added functionality. Right now nothing has actually been removed. I'm completely 100% serious about this. You're wrong here. This is a big non-issue that you've blown out of proportion. The recoloring isn't even an upcoming feature. It's already usable in a limited form, you can see it in action in the text editor I posted. What is upcoming is having a nicer API around it. And this also isn't "purported" either, you can see the very real work happening on it right now: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/merge_requests/369 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/merge_requests/3...
forgotpwd16 5y ago
>The recoloring functionality there would not be possible in GTK3. This isn't true though. https://github.com/Gnostiphage/adwaita-color-gen https://github.com/Gnostiphage/adwaita-color-gen
- smoldesu 5y ago
  On top of that, inline CSS has been a thing since... GTK2? I'm not sure what the parent is getting at here. Yes, they added a new way to do a thing. That alone does not an upgrade make.
  - throwaway82652 5y ago
    No this post is again incorrect, GTK2 did not support CSS at all. And inline CSS has not been removed from GTK4 or libadwaita, you can still do that very easily. >Yes, they added a new way to do a thing. That alone does not an upgrade make. I'm confused as to what you think new features and upgrades are exactly, besides new ways to do things.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Fine then, GTK3 certainly has it, I know because I've used it myself. Pedantry aside, the point stands: it's not new, and it's certainly not functionality.
      - throwaway82652 5y ago
        >it's not new, and it's certainly not functionality. For GTK? Yes it is new and it is functionality, full recoloring of the theme was not previously supported. You can just look at the screenshots, the recoloring in the new text editor is an obvious improvement over the limited theme support that was in gedit. Maybe you don't want this functionality, and that's fine, but either of us can go open these apps up in a VM right now and compare them and note for a fact that the functionality has been added.
- throwaway82652 5y ago

smoldesu 5y ago

We're at an impasse. You're pointing to some changed colors and saying "see! they still let you make changes!" while I'm arguing that obfuscating the pre-existing theming interfaces is a pointless endeavor since nobody got anything out of it. Users have their hands tied. Developers lose the flexibility they once had with the toolkit. The idea of a "native" app has gone out the window. The only people who win here are the Flatpak folks who are just dying for people to dumb down their apps to work around the shortcomings of their "next generation" package manager. I'm not even going to argue this with you since there's nothing to argue about. The book is closed. GTK4 and Libadwaita are direct regressions from the functionality we had with GTK3 and libhandy. You can argue that these regressions exist for a purpose, and you can point to purported upcoming features and their purported upcoming functionality, but none of that changes what things look like right now. At the end of the day, as both a user and a developer, I need functionality. If you take that away from me, you can't also expect me to go along with whatever you're proposing for the future.

throwaway82652 5y ago
>We're at an impasse. No we're not, you're ignoring what I'm saying. Nothing was obfuscated and developers and users didn't lose any flexibility. Take a look at those screenshots. Developers actually have more flexibility here because now they have recoloring in addition to the traditional stylesheets. I don't understand what this has to do with flatpak either, that's not really any different from the other package managers as far as themes go. >GTK4 and Libadwaita are direct regressions from the functionality we had with GTK3 and libhandy. No, this is absurdly and egregiously wrong and the book is not closed. The only thing that's really happened here is added functionality. Right now nothing has actually been removed. I'm completely 100% serious about this. You're wrong here. This is a big non-issue that you've blown out of proportion. The recoloring isn't even an upcoming feature. It's already usable in a limited form, you can see it in action in the text editor I posted. What is upcoming is having a nicer API around it. And this also isn't "purported" either, you can see the very real work happening on it right now: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/merge_requests/369 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/merge_requests/3...

forgotpwd16 5y ago

>The recoloring functionality there would not be possible in GTK3. This isn't true though. https://github.com/Gnostiphage/adwaita-color-gen https://github.com/Gnostiphage/adwaita-color-gen

smoldesu 5y ago
On top of that, inline CSS has been a thing since... GTK2? I'm not sure what the parent is getting at here. Yes, they added a new way to do a thing. That alone does not an upgrade make.
- throwaway82652 5y ago
  No this post is again incorrect, GTK2 did not support CSS at all. And inline CSS has not been removed from GTK4 or libadwaita, you can still do that very easily. >Yes, they added a new way to do a thing. That alone does not an upgrade make. I'm confused as to what you think new features and upgrades are exactly, besides new ways to do things.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Fine then, GTK3 certainly has it, I know because I've used it myself. Pedantry aside, the point stands: it's not new, and it's certainly not functionality.
    - throwaway82652 5y ago
      >it's not new, and it's certainly not functionality. For GTK? Yes it is new and it is functionality, full recoloring of the theme was not previously supported. You can just look at the screenshots, the recoloring in the new text editor is an obvious improvement over the limited theme support that was in gedit. Maybe you don't want this functionality, and that's fine, but either of us can go open these apps up in a VM right now and compare them and note for a fact that the functionality has been added.
throwaway82652 5y ago