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I'm in a similar boat, but I turn down jobs that require osx use. my current job I was told I was able to use osx, windows, or kubuntu, whichever I prefer. I c

I'm in a similar boat, but I turn down jobs that require osx use. my current job I was told I was able to use osx, windows, or kubuntu, whichever I prefer. I chose kubuntu, and was handed a mac on day 1 because of chip shortage. it was the worse 3 months of my professional career, finally my Dell came in and I could actually get work done. I don't understand how people use them, I don't consider them a viable alternative to a nic environment. all you people here surprise me, I consider windows + wsl a better development environment and more nix like than osx. but maybe I'm just hurt in the head and missing something...

dcchambers 5y ago
Really interested why you felt that MacOS wasn't unix-like and wasn't productive? Assuming you have administrative control over your computer, you can use the terminal for everything. Open the terminal and you're literally dropped into a unix-y shell (zsh is the new default, but GNU bash and a POSIX-compatible sh are shipped as well, all right out of the box) and all of your favorite *nix commands will be available. The filesystem is like any other unix file system. There's several package managers available (Homebrew, MacPorts) for installing software - I virtually never use the Mac app store or even download .app images directly from vendors. Mac OS is not just Unix-like, it is a certified Unix-compliant operating system.^1 Apple prefers to keep this fact far away from the average mac consumer, but if you want to use them, the Unix/BSD underpinnings are right there. There are plenty of things to criticize about MacOS, but not being Unix-like is not one of them. [1]: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3678.htm https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3678.htm
- goosedragons 5y ago
  The only thing that feels UNIX like is the terminal and even then zsh is different than most are used to and the included bash is essentially ancient. Even basic things like getting to your home folder with Finder is more trouble than it needs to be on a stock modern macOS install. They really go to lengths to hide it. If all that feels *nix-like is the the terminal why bother? WSL can do that too but if I want apt I can use that. I feel like there's no integration between the macOS UI stuff and the Unix underpinnings.
  - dcchambers 5y ago
    From a technical/programming perspective, there's just so much that MacOS (unix) does right: things like file permissions, the layout of the file system, and having industry-standard tools like vim, make, gcc, ssh, bash (even if older versions) built in. I haven't used Windows for anything other than playing games for almost 10 years, but I remember things like Ruby (especially Rails) and Python programming were a complete PITA in Windows versus Mac (Unix) or Linux. Maybe that's changed...I honestly couldn't tell you. I agree that it's annoying how much apple tries to hide the Unix nature of the OS. I have no idea why they hide the home folder from Finder by default, it's on my list of "things to change immediately" when I do a fresh Mac install/setup, as well as things like installing newer versions of Bash, Vim, etc (via Homebrew). But overall I think the pros of the OS vastly outweigh the cons. For the most part, all of the things I don't like about the OS can be turned off or tuned. And I value how things work under the hood too much to give that up. I will admit I have never tried WSL - because I've never had a need to. I've considered trying it, but then I just tell myself I'd rather just use Linux.
  - kec 5y ago
    > [...]Even basic things like getting to your home folder with Finder is more trouble than it needs to be on a stock modern macOS install. They really go to lengths to hide it.[...] Open finder then cmd-shift-h or cmd-shift-g, "~" Both of these work right out of the box, what would you rather macOS do to be easier?
    - goosedragons 5y ago
      Super discoverable. Put Home on the sidebar by default like Thunar, Nautilus, Dolphin, Caja, earlier versions of Mac OS X...
      - throwaway675309 5y ago
        I mean you're not wrong, but at the same time I figured that stuff out on day one of using my Mac simply by just googling around a little bit and from then on I knew it... You only have to learn these things one time so this feels like a pretty minor nitpick.
- tomrod 5y ago
  MacOS is missing the common use of the control button. I just need control, alt, and a meta button ("Windows" button). What is this option and command nonsense?
  - dcchambers 5y ago
    That was one of the hardest things for me to get used to when I moved primarily from Linux --> Mac (and it still makes switching between Mac and Windows annoying). Keyboard remapping helped at first but I was getting tired of inconsistencies so I just forced myself to relearn the modifier keys. Funnily enough, the command key and many of those popular shortcuts (eg cut copy paste) predates windows by several years. The story goes that windows wanted to use the same shortcuts, but PC keyboards lacked a command key - so they used control instead. Since windows was backwards compatible with lots of hardware, they couldn't require a key that didn't exist on most keyboards. Prior to that of course, Control has a long history of interacting with command-line based applications in Unix/family (eg Ctrl-C to cancel a running CLI app). Of course those same things still work in MacOS like they did in the older Unixes.
  - GeneralMaximus 5y ago
    That's what the default Mac keyboard layout has been for decades. Just because Microsoft/IBM won the desktop OS wars and forced everyone to use their keyboard layout doesn't mean Mac users have to comply. I'm used to switching between Mac and PC layouts every day, but I personally prefer the Mac keyboard layout. Command is easier to press with a thumb compared to Ctrl, which requires the pinkie. Option allows you to input special characters with far more ease compared to any PC operating system (e.g Opt + Shift + - for an em-dash compared to some crazy incantation on Windows). Control is still available as an additional modifier if you want it. A great side-effect of using Cmd as the primary modifier is that shortcuts inside your terminal become simplified. E.g Cmd + C to copy rather than Ctrl + Shift + C, or Cmd + T to open a new tab rather than Ctrl + Shift + T. In an ideal world, Windows would switch to using the Win key as its primary modifier instead of Ctrl. That would make life so much simpler.
- eadmund 4y ago
  > GNU bash From 15 years ago! > all of your favorite *nix commands will be available Except that they are the BSD variants, not the GNU ones.
  - dcchambers 4y ago
    Yes the included Bash is very old, but installing an updated version is trivial. I'd rather have something included than nothing. Does BSD varient vs GNU varient matter when we're considering if something is unix-like? No one would say that the BSD distributions are not Unix derivatives. As they say, "GNUs Not Unix..."

dcchambers 5y ago

Really interested why you felt that MacOS wasn't unix-like and wasn't productive? Assuming you have administrative control over your computer, you can use the terminal for everything. Open the terminal and you're literally dropped into a unix-y shell (zsh is the new default, but GNU bash and a POSIX-compatible sh are shipped as well, all right out of the box) and all of your favorite *nix commands will be available. The filesystem is like any other unix file system. There's several package managers available (Homebrew, MacPorts) for installing software - I virtually never use the Mac app store or even download .app images directly from vendors. Mac OS is not just Unix-like, it is a certified Unix-compliant operating system.^1 Apple prefers to keep this fact far away from the average mac consumer, but if you want to use them, the Unix/BSD underpinnings are right there. There are plenty of things to criticize about MacOS, but not being Unix-like is not one of them. [1]: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3678.htm https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3678.htm

goosedragons 5y ago
The only thing that feels UNIX like is the terminal and even then zsh is different than most are used to and the included bash is essentially ancient. Even basic things like getting to your home folder with Finder is more trouble than it needs to be on a stock modern macOS install. They really go to lengths to hide it. If all that feels *nix-like is the the terminal why bother? WSL can do that too but if I want apt I can use that. I feel like there's no integration between the macOS UI stuff and the Unix underpinnings.
- dcchambers 5y ago
  From a technical/programming perspective, there's just so much that MacOS (unix) does right: things like file permissions, the layout of the file system, and having industry-standard tools like vim, make, gcc, ssh, bash (even if older versions) built in. I haven't used Windows for anything other than playing games for almost 10 years, but I remember things like Ruby (especially Rails) and Python programming were a complete PITA in Windows versus Mac (Unix) or Linux. Maybe that's changed...I honestly couldn't tell you. I agree that it's annoying how much apple tries to hide the Unix nature of the OS. I have no idea why they hide the home folder from Finder by default, it's on my list of "things to change immediately" when I do a fresh Mac install/setup, as well as things like installing newer versions of Bash, Vim, etc (via Homebrew). But overall I think the pros of the OS vastly outweigh the cons. For the most part, all of the things I don't like about the OS can be turned off or tuned. And I value how things work under the hood too much to give that up. I will admit I have never tried WSL - because I've never had a need to. I've considered trying it, but then I just tell myself I'd rather just use Linux.
- kec 5y ago
  > [...]Even basic things like getting to your home folder with Finder is more trouble than it needs to be on a stock modern macOS install. They really go to lengths to hide it.[...] Open finder then cmd-shift-h or cmd-shift-g, "~" Both of these work right out of the box, what would you rather macOS do to be easier?
  - goosedragons 5y ago
    Super discoverable. Put Home on the sidebar by default like Thunar, Nautilus, Dolphin, Caja, earlier versions of Mac OS X...
    - throwaway675309 5y ago
      I mean you're not wrong, but at the same time I figured that stuff out on day one of using my Mac simply by just googling around a little bit and from then on I knew it... You only have to learn these things one time so this feels like a pretty minor nitpick.
tomrod 5y ago
MacOS is missing the common use of the control button. I just need control, alt, and a meta button ("Windows" button). What is this option and command nonsense?
- dcchambers 5y ago
  That was one of the hardest things for me to get used to when I moved primarily from Linux --> Mac (and it still makes switching between Mac and Windows annoying). Keyboard remapping helped at first but I was getting tired of inconsistencies so I just forced myself to relearn the modifier keys. Funnily enough, the command key and many of those popular shortcuts (eg cut copy paste) predates windows by several years. The story goes that windows wanted to use the same shortcuts, but PC keyboards lacked a command key - so they used control instead. Since windows was backwards compatible with lots of hardware, they couldn't require a key that didn't exist on most keyboards. Prior to that of course, Control has a long history of interacting with command-line based applications in Unix/family (eg Ctrl-C to cancel a running CLI app). Of course those same things still work in MacOS like they did in the older Unixes.
- GeneralMaximus 5y ago
  That's what the default Mac keyboard layout has been for decades. Just because Microsoft/IBM won the desktop OS wars and forced everyone to use their keyboard layout doesn't mean Mac users have to comply. I'm used to switching between Mac and PC layouts every day, but I personally prefer the Mac keyboard layout. Command is easier to press with a thumb compared to Ctrl, which requires the pinkie. Option allows you to input special characters with far more ease compared to any PC operating system (e.g Opt + Shift + - for an em-dash compared to some crazy incantation on Windows). Control is still available as an additional modifier if you want it. A great side-effect of using Cmd as the primary modifier is that shortcuts inside your terminal become simplified. E.g Cmd + C to copy rather than Ctrl + Shift + C, or Cmd + T to open a new tab rather than Ctrl + Shift + T. In an ideal world, Windows would switch to using the Win key as its primary modifier instead of Ctrl. That would make life so much simpler.
eadmund 4y ago
> GNU bash From 15 years ago! > all of your favorite *nix commands will be available Except that they are the BSD variants, not the GNU ones.
- dcchambers 4y ago
  Yes the included Bash is very old, but installing an updated version is trivial. I'd rather have something included than nothing. Does BSD varient vs GNU varient matter when we're considering if something is unix-like? No one would say that the BSD distributions are not Unix derivatives. As they say, "GNUs Not Unix..."