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What if the incompetence is maliciously decided upon? Hanlon's razor works for individuals, but falls apart for larger institutions.

Ken_At_EM 5y ago
I believe that you may be significantly underestimating the incompetence of most organizations.
jklein11 5y ago
If all of the individuals are acting without malice, how could the institution act with malice? Isn't the institution just the collective will of the individuals? I could see it playing out like this, incompetence causes the problem, incompetence fails to identify the problem, incompetence fails to fix the problem.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- willis936 5y ago
  That betrays the cooperative principle. Such an institution could not survive.
- 8organicbits 5y ago
  > If all of the individuals are acting without malice, how could the institution act with malice? Isn't the institution just the collective will of the individuals? I think we are on an unproductive tangent, but these are quite important questions. An institution doesn't have its own free will, so I don't think I can claim it can have "intent to cause harm", but it can certainly cause harm. An institution is not just a collection of people, it is also the business processes and policies. While these are created by people within the institution, they stick around over time. As the world changes around the organization, well intentioned policy can begin to harm. Individual employees following policy and normal business practice (i.e. just doing their jobs) can behave maliciously without their own intent to do so (sorry, my hands are tied). An institution needs not only non-malicious members, it needs to constantly re-evaluate its practices. Importantly, when harmful outcomes are observed the institution must re-evaluate and adjust, otherwise the harm will continue. It's not enough for members to conduct their own behavior without malice, they must also observe outcomes and actively fight against the inertia of existing policy.
tshaddox 5y ago
It also falls apart any time there is a legitimate responsibility to do something. Negligence is malicious even if it’s convenient to blame incompetence.
Spooky23 5y ago
Incompetent management wouldn’t be able to be consistently incompetent. That’s the big issue with incompetence. Apple is unique in that their product marketing has a big role in the product design process. If you step back and look at what they do objectively, there are a few journey mapped “happy paths” that Apple designs to. They actively remove features that distract from the true paths. It’s noticeable with them as Apple has no sympathy for legacy. But you can see it with other companies. An easy one is Google Drive/Docs - they make it easy to find a file, but didn’t consider that you may want to see the folder context of where the file is.
- smugma 5y ago
  Less true in music. For example, iTunes Match is still a thing, even though it’s (mostly) obsolete if you have Apple Music.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    Sorta. I'm an iTunes Match person. They sort of integrated it as Apple Music lite. They wrecked the UI completely. Which makes sense - I imagine that the program management of iTunes Match is probably a low priority. Basically, i use search history as a sort of playlist.

Ken_At_EM 5y ago

I believe that you may be significantly underestimating the incompetence of most organizations.

jklein11 5y ago

If all of the individuals are acting without malice, how could the institution act with malice? Isn't the institution just the collective will of the individuals? I could see it playing out like this, incompetence causes the problem, incompetence fails to identify the problem, incompetence fails to fix the problem.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
willis936 5y ago
That betrays the cooperative principle. Such an institution could not survive.
8organicbits 5y ago
> If all of the individuals are acting without malice, how could the institution act with malice? Isn't the institution just the collective will of the individuals? I think we are on an unproductive tangent, but these are quite important questions. An institution doesn't have its own free will, so I don't think I can claim it can have "intent to cause harm", but it can certainly cause harm. An institution is not just a collection of people, it is also the business processes and policies. While these are created by people within the institution, they stick around over time. As the world changes around the organization, well intentioned policy can begin to harm. Individual employees following policy and normal business practice (i.e. just doing their jobs) can behave maliciously without their own intent to do so (sorry, my hands are tied). An institution needs not only non-malicious members, it needs to constantly re-evaluate its practices. Importantly, when harmful outcomes are observed the institution must re-evaluate and adjust, otherwise the harm will continue. It's not enough for members to conduct their own behavior without malice, they must also observe outcomes and actively fight against the inertia of existing policy.

tshaddox 5y ago

It also falls apart any time there is a legitimate responsibility to do something. Negligence is malicious even if it’s convenient to blame incompetence.

Spooky23 5y ago

Incompetent management wouldn’t be able to be consistently incompetent. That’s the big issue with incompetence. Apple is unique in that their product marketing has a big role in the product design process. If you step back and look at what they do objectively, there are a few journey mapped “happy paths” that Apple designs to. They actively remove features that distract from the true paths. It’s noticeable with them as Apple has no sympathy for legacy. But you can see it with other companies. An easy one is Google Drive/Docs - they make it easy to find a file, but didn’t consider that you may want to see the folder context of where the file is.

smugma 5y ago
Less true in music. For example, iTunes Match is still a thing, even though it’s (mostly) obsolete if you have Apple Music.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Sorta. I'm an iTunes Match person. They sort of integrated it as Apple Music lite. They wrecked the UI completely. Which makes sense - I imagine that the program management of iTunes Match is probably a low priority. Basically, i use search history as a sort of playlist.