4 ms·

Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts, not ideal platonic forms. Since they are usually formed by a consensus, or at least the appearance of a consens

Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts, not ideal platonic forms. Since they are usually formed by a consensus, or at least the appearance of a consensus, they are inherently political. The scientific method will tend to produce facts which are "eventually consistent" with reality, but since humans are involved, it's not a guarantee, especially in the short term.

rcoveson 4y ago
No, facts are true statements. We don't know which statements about this collectively observed reality are facts. Coming up with new statements about reality and figuring out how likely it is that they are facts is the point of science.
- programmarchy 4y ago
  Sure, I’ll concede that definition. But I’m referring to truth claims presented as facts.
adrianN 4y ago
Absolute skepticism works well in philosophy lectures, but it's not a good heuristic in real life. Most facts we find by scientific short term consensus are quite close to reality.
- programmarchy 4y ago
  I’m not a skeptic but recognize Hume has a point, and if one doesn’t take epistemology seriously then one is merely a dogmatist. Dogmatism has become an acute problem in our institutions as the OP indicates, and surely you’ve heard of the replication crisis as well.
tenuousemphasis 4y ago
>Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts, not ideal platonic forms. Is that a fact, or opinion?
- programmarchy 4y ago
  I’ll take the opportunity to expand. Say you observe an event directly, with your own eyes. We’ll exclude optical illusions, hallucinations, or the possibility of a demon manipulating your brain in a vat. Is your direct observation a fact? It’s an important observation, so you must communicate it to others. You perform a speech act to tell a few colleagues, with utterances and gesticulations to describe your observation as closely as possible. Is your oral exposition a fact? You must communicate the observation widely for the good of society. You write a Tweet thread, and publish a scientific paper to the journals. Are these written productions also facts? It’s retweeted, and a summary of the preprint is published to nature.com. Facts? Colloquially, most people would refer to all of these things as facts. And each one is a carefully constructed human artifact, whether it’s sensory data imported and stored in your brain, a speech utterance, a Tweet, or a scientific article.
  - geysersam 4y ago
    Thank you for the well articulated comments. The emphasis on absoluteness of facts in (American) public discussion nowadays is sometimes quite hysterical.
- giardini 4y ago
  tenuousemphasis says>"Is that a fact, or opinion?" I'll muddy the waters here: neither, it is a belief. I prefer to avoid the term "fact" b/c it leads to too many arguments, just as is happening here. Rather than "facts" we have beliefs and some things we believe more than others. -------------------------- "...in this analysis we shall approximate the horse by a sphere of radius r..." - physicist's monologue in joke about racehorses, engineers, chemists and physicists.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    That... dodges the question. One may have a belief on a question of fact or one of opinion. > I prefer to avoid the term "fact" b/c it leads to too many arguments Arguments are not a bad thing. Avoiding them by muddying language is a bad thing.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
If you lose the perspective that “a single reality exists and we all share it- regardless of the degree to which we actually understand it” then you’re lost to science. What your doing is no longer science and is in fact just politics.
- programmarchy 4y ago
  Personally, I do believe in a universal reality. Tangentially, I also believe that cannot be justified by an autonomous epistemology. But to the point, humans make mistakes, have biases and incentives, and do not always tell the truth. Science is a human affair. Because of this, politics is present in science and even intrudes upon the processes of conducting the scientific method. Ignoring this "heresy" will only compound the issue, and further erode trust in our institutions. The remedy is more honesty, not less.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts Beliefs about questions of fact may be, facts are not. At least, by the usual definition of “fact”. If we’re just redefining words, sure, whatever.
- programmarchy 4y ago
  I try to address the definition in another comment below (to tenuousemphasis), and would be curious to hear your response there. I would add that I think the dictionary definition raises the same issues as the colloquial ones.

rcoveson 4y ago

No, facts are true statements. We don't know which statements about this collectively observed reality are facts. Coming up with new statements about reality and figuring out how likely it is that they are facts is the point of science.

programmarchy 4y ago
Sure, I’ll concede that definition. But I’m referring to truth claims presented as facts.

adrianN 4y ago

Absolute skepticism works well in philosophy lectures, but it's not a good heuristic in real life. Most facts we find by scientific short term consensus are quite close to reality.

programmarchy 4y ago
I’m not a skeptic but recognize Hume has a point, and if one doesn’t take epistemology seriously then one is merely a dogmatist. Dogmatism has become an acute problem in our institutions as the OP indicates, and surely you’ve heard of the replication crisis as well.

tenuousemphasis 4y ago

>Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts, not ideal platonic forms. Is that a fact, or opinion?

programmarchy 4y ago
I’ll take the opportunity to expand. Say you observe an event directly, with your own eyes. We’ll exclude optical illusions, hallucinations, or the possibility of a demon manipulating your brain in a vat. Is your direct observation a fact? It’s an important observation, so you must communicate it to others. You perform a speech act to tell a few colleagues, with utterances and gesticulations to describe your observation as closely as possible. Is your oral exposition a fact? You must communicate the observation widely for the good of society. You write a Tweet thread, and publish a scientific paper to the journals. Are these written productions also facts? It’s retweeted, and a summary of the preprint is published to nature.com. Facts? Colloquially, most people would refer to all of these things as facts. And each one is a carefully constructed human artifact, whether it’s sensory data imported and stored in your brain, a speech utterance, a Tweet, or a scientific article.
- geysersam 4y ago
  Thank you for the well articulated comments. The emphasis on absoluteness of facts in (American) public discussion nowadays is sometimes quite hysterical.
giardini 4y ago
tenuousemphasis says>"Is that a fact, or opinion?" I'll muddy the waters here: neither, it is a belief. I prefer to avoid the term "fact" b/c it leads to too many arguments, just as is happening here. Rather than "facts" we have beliefs and some things we believe more than others. -------------------------- "...in this analysis we shall approximate the horse by a sphere of radius r..." - physicist's monologue in joke about racehorses, engineers, chemists and physicists.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  That... dodges the question. One may have a belief on a question of fact or one of opinion. > I prefer to avoid the term "fact" b/c it leads to too many arguments Arguments are not a bad thing. Avoiding them by muddying language is a bad thing.

AbrahamParangi 4y ago

If you lose the perspective that “a single reality exists and we all share it- regardless of the degree to which we actually understand it” then you’re lost to science. What your doing is no longer science and is in fact just politics.

programmarchy 4y ago
Personally, I do believe in a universal reality. Tangentially, I also believe that cannot be justified by an autonomous epistemology. But to the point, humans make mistakes, have biases and incentives, and do not always tell the truth. Science is a human affair. Because of this, politics is present in science and even intrudes upon the processes of conducting the scientific method. Ignoring this "heresy" will only compound the issue, and further erode trust in our institutions. The remedy is more honesty, not less.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts Beliefs about questions of fact may be, facts are not. At least, by the usual definition of “fact”. If we’re just redefining words, sure, whatever.

programmarchy 4y ago
I try to address the definition in another comment below (to tenuousemphasis), and would be curious to hear your response there. I would add that I think the dictionary definition raises the same issues as the colloquial ones.