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I don't understand. Just cook stuff from scratch? This isn't difficult. Just modestly time consuming it you want a varied meal plan. Unless you're saying that

by morsch 5y ago

I don't understand. Just cook stuff from scratch? This isn't difficult. Just modestly time consuming it you want a varied meal plan. Unless you're saying that even for raw ingredients like eggs and potatoes, it's hard to know what's in them, in the sense that modern agriculture is a complex affair.

woodruffw 5y ago
I didn't word this well -- I do cook most of my meals from scratch (and have my entire life; I can count on one hand the number of times I've eaten McDonald's or most other chains). What I meant was most prepared foods, even ones that are ingredients themselves: our entire food supply chain is built around uniformity, shelf stability, etc. constraints in ways that have fundamentally changed how things combine into final edible products. Tomatoes that are all the same size, for example, or the fact that I can leave peanut butter in a humid cabinet for months without worrying about it going rancid.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  It’s fascinating how much this can change if you find a good source for local stuff. Tomatoes go from uniformly-sized red food pellets to a huge variety of sizes and colors with a lot more flavor to them. I miss having a farmer’s market two blocks from my place with a heirloom tomato specialist showing up regularly.
  - fosk 5y ago
    As a European, food at the farmer’s market is usually cheaper in Europe because we cut the middleman and go straight to the producer. Somehow in the US, it’s more expensive instead because “artisanal”, “organic” and so on. As such, in the US, farmer markets always feel like a scam to me.
    - dismantlethesun 5y ago
      Food at US farmer markets are cheaper if two conditions are met: firstly, going to an actual farmers market which tends to be far out of town, secondly, only buying in season produce without hydroponics. In the US, I live about 100km outside of a major city, so the farms are next door and the food is tasty. That said, it's really difficult to convince someone to drive 100km to get a normal ordinary head of lettuce with dirt attached to it so they set up stalls inside the city for top selling 'organic artisanal' items that come in nice display cases.
    - dagw 5y ago
      In both the US and (at least parts of) Europe you have two types of "Farmers markets". One where actual farmers sell in season produce from their actual farm, and one where middlemen buy/import stuff from all over the place and resell it in a market like setting. In both cases the first one is cheap and the second one is expensive.
    - ziml77 5y ago
      More of a scam than you think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYwB63YslbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYwB63YslbA
    - splitstud 5y ago
    - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
      Didn't realize until reading the child comment that there were middlemen. I live in a rural area in the US: the people selling at farmer's markets around here are almost always the people who grew the food. A lot of farms have stands set up on the road unattended, with a price list: you buy eggs, veggies, etc. on the honor system.
kccqzy 5y ago
Definitely the raw ingredients are different. For example when I buy milk, I can find versions that are from cows not treated with rBST, and those that are. Is there much of a difference for consumers? The government doesn't think so, but certainly some producers do. Same thing with meat. You can buy meat from animals fed with ractopamine, and those that aren't. Some governments (such as the European Union) believe it's harmful and they ban it; others (U.S. in particular) don't. What do you choose? And there are many, many more similar choices.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  Ractiopamine was new to me recently, but my dad grew up on a farm and always refused to buy milk from cows treated with rBST- the effects on the animals was cruel. rBST free milk around this part of the country seems to be the standard; the only place I remember even seeing milk thatb didn't advertise it was Walmart. My dad's family didn't raise cows for meat, which might explain the (in)difference to ractiopamine, but fortunately it seems like major producers in the US are trying to get away from it so they can continue to access foreign markets (Tyson pork at least). I imagine it'll take time, but fingers crossed it'll get phased out entirely.
- projektfu 5y ago
  Cows treated with rBST are probably not producing milk that is distinguishable from untreated milk but I oppose it for two reasons. 1. The cattle have visibly lower welfare. They carry heavier bags, they have more frequent infections. 2. The farmers are already in a situation of low bulk milk price and high cost. Margins in dairy farming are frequently negative. This increases cost to try to produce more output per cow, which is a beggar-thy-neighbor approach. If everyone does it, milk prices go down even further. I don't know enough about ractopamine to have an opinion.
- actionfromafar 5y ago
  Banned in the EU since 1999.

by morsch 5y ago

woodruffw 5y ago

I didn't word this well -- I do cook most of my meals from scratch (and have my entire life; I can count on one hand the number of times I've eaten McDonald's or most other chains). What I meant was most prepared foods, even ones that are ingredients themselves: our entire food supply chain is built around uniformity, shelf stability, etc. constraints in ways that have fundamentally changed how things combine into final edible products. Tomatoes that are all the same size, for example, or the fact that I can leave peanut butter in a humid cabinet for months without worrying about it going rancid.

egypturnash 5y ago
It’s fascinating how much this can change if you find a good source for local stuff. Tomatoes go from uniformly-sized red food pellets to a huge variety of sizes and colors with a lot more flavor to them. I miss having a farmer’s market two blocks from my place with a heirloom tomato specialist showing up regularly.
- fosk 5y ago
  As a European, food at the farmer’s market is usually cheaper in Europe because we cut the middleman and go straight to the producer. Somehow in the US, it’s more expensive instead because “artisanal”, “organic” and so on. As such, in the US, farmer markets always feel like a scam to me.
  - dismantlethesun 5y ago
    Food at US farmer markets are cheaper if two conditions are met: firstly, going to an actual farmers market which tends to be far out of town, secondly, only buying in season produce without hydroponics. In the US, I live about 100km outside of a major city, so the farms are next door and the food is tasty. That said, it's really difficult to convince someone to drive 100km to get a normal ordinary head of lettuce with dirt attached to it so they set up stalls inside the city for top selling 'organic artisanal' items that come in nice display cases.
  - dagw 5y ago
    In both the US and (at least parts of) Europe you have two types of "Farmers markets". One where actual farmers sell in season produce from their actual farm, and one where middlemen buy/import stuff from all over the place and resell it in a market like setting. In both cases the first one is cheap and the second one is expensive.
  - ziml77 5y ago
    More of a scam than you think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYwB63YslbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYwB63YslbA
  - splitstud 5y ago
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Didn't realize until reading the child comment that there were middlemen. I live in a rural area in the US: the people selling at farmer's markets around here are almost always the people who grew the food. A lot of farms have stands set up on the road unattended, with a price list: you buy eggs, veggies, etc. on the honor system.

kccqzy 5y ago

Definitely the raw ingredients are different. For example when I buy milk, I can find versions that are from cows not treated with rBST, and those that are. Is there much of a difference for consumers? The government doesn't think so, but certainly some producers do. Same thing with meat. You can buy meat from animals fed with ractopamine, and those that aren't. Some governments (such as the European Union) believe it's harmful and they ban it; others (U.S. in particular) don't. What do you choose? And there are many, many more similar choices.

zdragnar 5y ago
Ractiopamine was new to me recently, but my dad grew up on a farm and always refused to buy milk from cows treated with rBST- the effects on the animals was cruel. rBST free milk around this part of the country seems to be the standard; the only place I remember even seeing milk thatb didn't advertise it was Walmart. My dad's family didn't raise cows for meat, which might explain the (in)difference to ractiopamine, but fortunately it seems like major producers in the US are trying to get away from it so they can continue to access foreign markets (Tyson pork at least). I imagine it'll take time, but fingers crossed it'll get phased out entirely.
projektfu 5y ago
Cows treated with rBST are probably not producing milk that is distinguishable from untreated milk but I oppose it for two reasons. 1. The cattle have visibly lower welfare. They carry heavier bags, they have more frequent infections. 2. The farmers are already in a situation of low bulk milk price and high cost. Margins in dairy farming are frequently negative. This increases cost to try to produce more output per cow, which is a beggar-thy-neighbor approach. If everyone does it, milk prices go down even further. I don't know enough about ractopamine to have an opinion.
actionfromafar 5y ago
Banned in the EU since 1999.