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Depends whether you think models should be able to generate cp. It's almost impossible to even give an affirmative answer to that question without making yours

Depends whether you think models should be able to generate cp. It's almost impossible to even give an affirmative answer to that question without making yourself a target. And as much as I err on the side of creator freedom, I find myself shying away from saying yes without qualifications. And if you don't allow cp, then by definition you require some censoring. At that point it's just a matter of where you censor, not whether. OpenAI has gone as far as possible on the censorship, reducing the impact of the model to "something that can make people smile." But it's sort of hard to blame them, if they want to focus on making models rather than fighting political battles. One could imagine a cyberpunk future where seedy AI cp images are swapped in an AR universe, generated by models ran by underground hackers that scrounge together what resources they can to power the behemoth models that they stole via hacks. Probably worth a short story at least. You could make the argument that we have fine laws around porn right now, and that we should simply follow those. But it's not clear that AI generated imagery can be illegal at all. The question will only become more pressing with time, and society has to solve it before it can address the holistic concerns you point out. OpenAI ain't gonna fight that fight, so it's up to EleutherAI or someone else. But whoever fights it in the affirmative will probably be vilified, so it'd require an impressive level of selflessness.

aliakhtar 5y ago
Of course some level of censorship is needed, otherwise it can be used to produce porn involving real people without their consent (eg celebs)
- Szpadel 5y ago
  we already have a lot of fabricated content like that using current photo editing technology (Photoshop) and it's not causing much legal nor moral issues
  - aliakhtar 5y ago
    Because it’s still pretty hard to make it and it’s bad - you can easily tell it’s fake. This makes it as easy as typing a sentence - and the quality seems fairly realistic
    - BlueTemplar 5y ago
      Considering where the progress on deepfakes is at, I'm going to have to disagree on both counts of "hard to make" and "easily tell it's fake".
mgdlbp 5y ago
I've thought for quite some time that questionable AI-generated content will lie at the heart of an forthcoming 'Infocalypse'. [0] Given the 2021 AI Dungeon fiasco over text-based AI-generated child porn, I shall posit that it's already upon us. 30 years since the original issue of encryption, it looks like cp trumps the other Horsemen of the Cyperpunk FAQ, with drug dealers and organized crime taking the back seat. It's interesting how misinformation is a recent development that they anticipate; a Google search shows that the term 'Infocalypse' was actually appropriated by discussions of deepfakes some time in mid-2020. That said, the crypto wars are here to stay—most recently with EARN IT reintroduced just two months ago. The similar issue of 3D-printed guns has developed in parallel over the past decade as democratized manufacturing became a reality. There are even HN discussions tying all of these technologies together, by comparing attitudes towards the availability of Tor vs guns (e.g., [1]). And there are innumerable related moral qualms to be had in the future; will the illegal drugs or weapons produced using matter replicators be AI-designed? Overall, I think all of these issues revolve around the question of what it means to limit freedoms that we've only just invented, as technological advances enable things never before considered possible in legislation. (And as the parent comment implies, here's where the use of science fiction in considering the implications of the impossible comes in). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8816013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8816013
loufe 5y ago
There are so many excellent, thought-provoking comments in this thread, but yours caught me especially. Something that came to mind immediately upon reading the release was the potential for this technology to transform literature, adding AI generated imagery to turn any novel into a visual novel as a premium way to experience the story, something akin to composing D-Box seat response to a modern movie. I was imagining telling the cyberpunk future story you were elaborating, which is really compelling, in such a way and couldn't help but smile.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Please write it! I'd love to read one.
- aryamaan 5y ago
  In the same theme, I liked the comments of both of you. Another use case could be to make it easier/ automatic to create comics. You tell what the background should be, characters should be doing and the dialogues. Boom, you have a good enough comic. ----------- Reading as a medium has not evolved with technology. Creating the imagery does happen in humans' minds. It's not surprise that some people enjoy doing that (and also enjoy watching that imagery) and others do not. This could be a helping brain to create those imageries. ----------- Now imagine, reading stories to your child. Actually, creating stories for your child. Where they are the characters in the stories. Having a visual element to it is definetly going to be a premium experience.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    I can also imagine the magical nature of a child being able to make up a story (as children are wont to do) and having Dall-E here generating a picture book as they go.
chias 5y ago
Would this not necessarily require training it on a large body of real CSAM? Seems like it would be a non-starter.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Surprisingly no. It knows what a child looks like, and can infer what a naked child looks like from medical imagery. A child with adult body parts is a whole other class of weirdness that might pop out too. Models want to surprise us all.
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    Relatedly, when checking for a related comment, I wanted to see what the current state of deep fakes progress was, so I went to the usual place where the bleeding edge for such things could be found. First video clips were with the faces of your usual celebrities, but then suddenly I got "treated" to Greta Thunberg in the situations you might expect. I cut my exploration short. Now, Greta Thunberg is actually 19 now (how time flies !), except that deep fake was most likely trained on her media appearances, which started when she was 15 ! (I guess at least that she wasn't a child any more, which might explain why those clips had not been almost immediately flagged and removed ?)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kromem 5y ago
I don't think it's necessarily certain villainy for those who fight that fight as long as they are fighting it correctly. There's a huge case to be made that flooding the darknet with AI generated CP reduces the revictimization of those in authentic CP images, and would cut down on the motivating factors to produce authentic CP (for which original production is often a requirement to join CP distribution rings). As well, I have wondered for a long time how the development of AI generated CP could be used in treatment settings, such as (a) providing access to victimless images in exchange for registration and undergoing treatment, and (b) exploring if possible to manipulate generated images over time to gradually "age up" attraction, such as learning what characteristics are being selected for and aging the others until you end up with someone attracted to youthful faces on adult bodies or adult faces on bodies with smaller sexual characteristics, etc - ideally finding a middle ground that allows for rewiring attraction to a point they can find fulfilling partnerships with consenting adults/sex workers. As a society we largely just sweep the existence of pedophiles under the rug, and that certainly hasn't helped protect people - nearly one in four are victims of sexual abuse before adulthood, and that tracks with my own social circle. Maybe it's time to all grow up and recognize it as a systemic social issue for which new and novel approaches may be necessary, and AI seems like a tool with very high potential for doing just that while reducing harm on victims in broad swaths. I'd not be that happy with an 8chan AI just spitting out CP images, but I'd be very happy with groups currently working on the issue from a treatment or victim-focus having the ability to change the script however they can with the availability of victimless CP content.
- aliakhtar 5y ago
  How do you suppose your CP generator will be trained without using authentic CP images? Not only will that require revictimization but you’ll also be downloading CP to train the model.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Fernicia 5y ago
    Did they need to put possums in space suits to tell Dell-E 2 how to render them?

aliakhtar 5y ago

Of course some level of censorship is needed, otherwise it can be used to produce porn involving real people without their consent (eg celebs)

Szpadel 5y ago
we already have a lot of fabricated content like that using current photo editing technology (Photoshop) and it's not causing much legal nor moral issues
- aliakhtar 5y ago
  Because it’s still pretty hard to make it and it’s bad - you can easily tell it’s fake. This makes it as easy as typing a sentence - and the quality seems fairly realistic
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    Considering where the progress on deepfakes is at, I'm going to have to disagree on both counts of "hard to make" and "easily tell it's fake".

mgdlbp 5y ago

I've thought for quite some time that questionable AI-generated content will lie at the heart of an forthcoming 'Infocalypse'. [0] Given the 2021 AI Dungeon fiasco over text-based AI-generated child porn, I shall posit that it's already upon us. 30 years since the original issue of encryption, it looks like cp trumps the other Horsemen of the Cyperpunk FAQ, with drug dealers and organized crime taking the back seat. It's interesting how misinformation is a recent development that they anticipate; a Google search shows that the term 'Infocalypse' was actually appropriated by discussions of deepfakes some time in mid-2020. That said, the crypto wars are here to stay—most recently with EARN IT reintroduced just two months ago. The similar issue of 3D-printed guns has developed in parallel over the past decade as democratized manufacturing became a reality. There are even HN discussions tying all of these technologies together, by comparing attitudes towards the availability of Tor vs guns (e.g., [1]). And there are innumerable related moral qualms to be had in the future; will the illegal drugs or weapons produced using matter replicators be AI-designed? Overall, I think all of these issues revolve around the question of what it means to limit freedoms that we've only just invented, as technological advances enable things never before considered possible in legislation. (And as the parent comment implies, here's where the use of science fiction in considering the implications of the impossible comes in). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8816013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8816013

loufe 5y ago

There are so many excellent, thought-provoking comments in this thread, but yours caught me especially. Something that came to mind immediately upon reading the release was the potential for this technology to transform literature, adding AI generated imagery to turn any novel into a visual novel as a premium way to experience the story, something akin to composing D-Box seat response to a modern movie. I was imagining telling the cyberpunk future story you were elaborating, which is really compelling, in such a way and couldn't help but smile.

sillysaurusx 5y ago
Please write it! I'd love to read one.
aryamaan 5y ago
In the same theme, I liked the comments of both of you. Another use case could be to make it easier/ automatic to create comics. You tell what the background should be, characters should be doing and the dialogues. Boom, you have a good enough comic. ----------- Reading as a medium has not evolved with technology. Creating the imagery does happen in humans' minds. It's not surprise that some people enjoy doing that (and also enjoy watching that imagery) and others do not. This could be a helping brain to create those imageries. ----------- Now imagine, reading stories to your child. Actually, creating stories for your child. Where they are the characters in the stories. Having a visual element to it is definetly going to be a premium experience.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I can also imagine the magical nature of a child being able to make up a story (as children are wont to do) and having Dall-E here generating a picture book as they go.

chias 5y ago

Would this not necessarily require training it on a large body of real CSAM? Seems like it would be a non-starter.

sillysaurusx 5y ago
Surprisingly no. It knows what a child looks like, and can infer what a naked child looks like from medical imagery. A child with adult body parts is a whole other class of weirdness that might pop out too. Models want to surprise us all.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Relatedly, when checking for a related comment, I wanted to see what the current state of deep fakes progress was, so I went to the usual place where the bleeding edge for such things could be found. First video clips were with the faces of your usual celebrities, but then suddenly I got "treated" to Greta Thunberg in the situations you might expect. I cut my exploration short. Now, Greta Thunberg is actually 19 now (how time flies !), except that deep fake was most likely trained on her media appearances, which started when she was 15 ! (I guess at least that she wasn't a child any more, which might explain why those clips had not been almost immediately flagged and removed ?)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kromem 5y ago

I don't think it's necessarily certain villainy for those who fight that fight as long as they are fighting it correctly. There's a huge case to be made that flooding the darknet with AI generated CP reduces the revictimization of those in authentic CP images, and would cut down on the motivating factors to produce authentic CP (for which original production is often a requirement to join CP distribution rings). As well, I have wondered for a long time how the development of AI generated CP could be used in treatment settings, such as (a) providing access to victimless images in exchange for registration and undergoing treatment, and (b) exploring if possible to manipulate generated images over time to gradually "age up" attraction, such as learning what characteristics are being selected for and aging the others until you end up with someone attracted to youthful faces on adult bodies or adult faces on bodies with smaller sexual characteristics, etc - ideally finding a middle ground that allows for rewiring attraction to a point they can find fulfilling partnerships with consenting adults/sex workers. As a society we largely just sweep the existence of pedophiles under the rug, and that certainly hasn't helped protect people - nearly one in four are victims of sexual abuse before adulthood, and that tracks with my own social circle. Maybe it's time to all grow up and recognize it as a systemic social issue for which new and novel approaches may be necessary, and AI seems like a tool with very high potential for doing just that while reducing harm on victims in broad swaths. I'd not be that happy with an 8chan AI just spitting out CP images, but I'd be very happy with groups currently working on the issue from a treatment or victim-focus having the ability to change the script however they can with the availability of victimless CP content.

aliakhtar 5y ago
How do you suppose your CP generator will be trained without using authentic CP images? Not only will that require revictimization but you’ll also be downloading CP to train the model.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Fernicia 5y ago
  Did they need to put possums in space suits to tell Dell-E 2 how to render them?