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This starts to make sense when you consider the self-flagellation of a full server-side-rendering production setup that has existed over the past decade, to the

This starts to make sense when you consider the self-flagellation of a full server-side-rendering production setup that has existed over the past decade, to the point many SPA products completely give up on SSR - or nowadays throw themselves at the walled garden of Vercel/Next.js etc to solve it for them.

rglover 5y ago
The truth I learned building my own SSR JavaScript framework is that it's not that complicated, it's just made complicated. 1. Get some data from a database/source. 2. Pass that data to a template/component. 3. Convert that template/component to HTML (using the given framework's version of renderToHTML()). 4. Return the HTML to your HTTP request. For example, here's the SSR for my framework: https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick/blob/development/node/src/ssr/index.js https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick/blob/development/node/.... It blew my mind when I wrote it because I was under the impression it would be more difficult.
n42 5y ago
I am not a fan of Vercel's strategy, but exactly how is the open source and MIT licensed Next.js a walled garden?
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  It's not. Next.js works on any platform supporting Node, and Vercel supports more than just Next.js. They support dozens of other frameworks.[0] They do promote Next.js on Vercel, but they don't stop you from using other systems. [0]: https://vercel.com/new/templates https://vercel.com/new/templates
  - o_m 5y ago
    Hosting next.js on Vercel and Azure is like night and day. A lot of smaller things start breaking, like `NEXT_PUBLIC_` environment variables. For me coming from Vercel, using Azure has been an uphill battle.
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Ever since Vercel killed `now`'s ability to serve an index.html with `now .`, I stopped being a fan. That and the pricing blunders have unfortunately pushed me away. On the other hand, https://docs.ycombinator.lol/ https://docs.ycombinator.lol/ has been running for years without me ever having to worry once, so there's that. Maybe it's time to give them another try.
    - Rauchg 5y ago
      That never stopped working. Neither on the edge side (as your live site indicates, which has been edge cached for 109 days in San Francisco), or on the deployment site, as the example below shows: Try it out: https://hi-there.vercel.app https://hi-there.vercel.app ▲ /tmp/ mkdir hi-there ▲ /tmp/ cd hi-there ▲ hi-there/ echo '<h1>hi sillysaurusx</h1>' > index.html ▲ hi-there/ vc […] Inspect: https://vercel.com/rauchg/hi-there [690ms] Production: https://hi-there.vercel.app [copied to clipboard] [9s] In under 10s which includes the project setup and linking prompts. The main difference is that `now` got shorter to `vc` Happy to hear more feedback on pricing. Please reach out to rauchg@vercel.com
      - mushyhammer 5y ago
        Sorry Guillermo but you’re not being truthful here. “$ now” worked on any node server, not just static content, it would just run “npm start”. Now v2+ instead requires a handler-based approach.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        Rauchg 5y ago
        I think I misunderstood his comment. I focused on the `index.html` example, but I think he was talking about servers (thanks for pointing that out). That said, the transition was good for servers too depending on what you were using. For example, `package.json` with Next.js was completely seamless!
      - 5y ago
grayrest 5y ago
There's plenty of non-Vercel attempts at this and it's kind of table stakes for frameworks hoping to get popular. There is a push for server-first/MPA app development where SSR is assumed to be the baseline. Remix [1], Qwik [2], and Marko [3] are in that camp. I'm not sure about Remix but the other two have a goal of authoring the entire app components but only sending the JS needed for the parts that can change on the client. [1] https://remix.run/ https://remix.run/ [2] https://github.com/BuilderIO/qwik https://github.com/BuilderIO/qwik [3] https://markojs.com/ https://markojs.com/

rglover 5y ago

The truth I learned building my own SSR JavaScript framework is that it's not that complicated, it's just made complicated. 1. Get some data from a database/source. 2. Pass that data to a template/component. 3. Convert that template/component to HTML (using the given framework's version of renderToHTML()). 4. Return the HTML to your HTTP request. For example, here's the SSR for my framework: https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick/blob/development/node/src/ssr/index.js https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick/blob/development/node/.... It blew my mind when I wrote it because I was under the impression it would be more difficult.

n42 5y ago

I am not a fan of Vercel's strategy, but exactly how is the open source and MIT licensed Next.js a walled garden?

colejohnson66 5y ago
It's not. Next.js works on any platform supporting Node, and Vercel supports more than just Next.js. They support dozens of other frameworks.[0] They do promote Next.js on Vercel, but they don't stop you from using other systems. [0]: https://vercel.com/new/templates https://vercel.com/new/templates
- o_m 5y ago
  Hosting next.js on Vercel and Azure is like night and day. A lot of smaller things start breaking, like `NEXT_PUBLIC_` environment variables. For me coming from Vercel, using Azure has been an uphill battle.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Ever since Vercel killed `now`'s ability to serve an index.html with `now .`, I stopped being a fan. That and the pricing blunders have unfortunately pushed me away. On the other hand, https://docs.ycombinator.lol/ https://docs.ycombinator.lol/ has been running for years without me ever having to worry once, so there's that. Maybe it's time to give them another try.
  - Rauchg 5y ago
    That never stopped working. Neither on the edge side (as your live site indicates, which has been edge cached for 109 days in San Francisco), or on the deployment site, as the example below shows: Try it out: https://hi-there.vercel.app https://hi-there.vercel.app ▲ /tmp/ mkdir hi-there ▲ /tmp/ cd hi-there ▲ hi-there/ echo '<h1>hi sillysaurusx</h1>' > index.html ▲ hi-there/ vc […] Inspect: https://vercel.com/rauchg/hi-there [690ms] Production: https://hi-there.vercel.app [copied to clipboard] [9s] In under 10s which includes the project setup and linking prompts. The main difference is that `now` got shorter to `vc` Happy to hear more feedback on pricing. Please reach out to rauchg@vercel.com
    - mushyhammer 5y ago
      Sorry Guillermo but you’re not being truthful here. “$ now” worked on any node server, not just static content, it would just run “npm start”. Now v2+ instead requires a handler-based approach.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - Rauchg 5y ago
        I think I misunderstood his comment. I focused on the `index.html` example, but I think he was talking about servers (thanks for pointing that out). That said, the transition was good for servers too depending on what you were using. For example, `package.json` with Next.js was completely seamless!
    - 5y ago

grayrest 5y ago

There's plenty of non-Vercel attempts at this and it's kind of table stakes for frameworks hoping to get popular. There is a push for server-first/MPA app development where SSR is assumed to be the baseline. Remix [1], Qwik [2], and Marko [3] are in that camp. I'm not sure about Remix but the other two have a goal of authoring the entire app components but only sending the JS needed for the parts that can change on the client. [1] https://remix.run/ https://remix.run/ [2] https://github.com/BuilderIO/qwik https://github.com/BuilderIO/qwik [3] https://markojs.com/ https://markojs.com/